Man taking 7-8 year old daughter into women's changing room

[bythere]

I was reading a reddit thread from the other month about a man at a martial arts studio taking his around 7-8 year old daughter into the women's locker room despite being told several times not to due to making women and girls uncomfortable. If anything, at that age she should be be fine in the woman's room by herself, although, he can maybe still take her into the men's room if necessary.

Has anyone ever had a man come into the women's locker room while you were there with a young daughter? Did you say or do anything if it happened?

[nolongersurprised]

nolonger i think most British children are the same

I think that comment was the last straw grasping of a drowning man

True.

DH has always “done” Saturday morning swimming lessons in our house.

Pre school daughters he would take into the men’s because he’s not an entitled wanker.

[RufustheSniggeringReindeer]

nolonger i think most British children are the same

I think that comment was the last straw grasping of a drowning man

[nolongersurprised]

Why are 8 year olds in public toilets alone again? Seems odd. Neglectful.

Only on mumsnet are 8 year olds without additional needs unable to use the toilet by themselves.

My Australian children have been changing independently before and after swimming and going to the toilet by themselves from about 6 years. My 8 year old daughter would think I’d gone nuts if I suddenly tried to “help” her before swim club. So would her friends. They can all navigate toilets, swimmers, caps and goggles without help.

My youngest son was 5 when he refused to go to the women’s toilet with me. There’ve been times I’ve hovered outside the loos waiting for him but I wouldn’t dream of following him into the men’s toilet. Not because of penises but because men deserve to feel comfortable in their same sex space as well.

[lottiegarbanzo]

But in the end, the people I REALLY don't want a young girl - be she 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, or an adult, or myself - getting naked and changed in front of, are strange MEN.

That's why we have sex-segregated changing rooms.

[lottiegarbanzo]

Just to clarify, I'd have no problem helping a 6 year old child (or any age) in a changing room and wouldn't find it an imposition at all. and totally agree that women are generally helpful but i couldn't in good conscience send a child that young in to a changing room alone and expect her to manage (i don't just mean the physical act of getting dressed) all the logistics you mentioned including getting into the shower. When my kid is big enough to say "sorry, i was next for the shower" then he/she is ready to be let in there alone.

A shy 12 year-old might not feel able to assert themselves, among a loud, pushy group. Should they not be allowed to change unaccompanied by a parent?

To reiterate, again. My 6yo was quite able to shower, change etc by herself, albeit slowly. She made a positive and definite decision that that was what she wanted to do. She did it.

The fact that women often can't help being helpful, was a separate point. At the time, it amused me, that DP wasn't aware of it and DD didn't mention (or probably recognise) it.

This fact, plus a normal ability to communicate, does offer a way round the 'where should my dd change?' problem, for any dads of 7/8 year-old girls who don't want to change in the men's. Ask a nice lady to help you. (And, with regular swimming lessons, you're likely to know some of the other parents slightly anyway).

Barging into the ladies' is the behaviour of a thoughtless, selfish, socially inept oaf and is never, ever necessary.

It takes a village and all that but not when it comes to a small girl getting naked in front of a room full of strangers - even if they are all women and boys under the age of 8.

I don't understand this. Are you saying everyone must have private cubicles, so that no child must get changed in front of other people? Small girls accompanied by a parent are still getting changed in front of people. The only way to avoid that is no shared changing rooms at all.

[Whatwouldscullydo]

It takes a village and all that but not when it comes to a small girl getting naked in front of a room full of strangers - even if they are all women and boys under the age of 8

Then don't. 6 is within the limits on the signs to take in with the parents.

If the parent isn't happy witg that idea then they seek alternatives that aren't intruding on the men or women who have the right to single sex spaces and not to have those spaces turned into mixed sex spaces against they didnt consent to

[grey12]

Saw a man going with his young daughter to bathroom. Actually I heard him as I was in the bathroom and it really made me uneasy.

He seemed like a great guy! I did let him know that he shouldn't be in the ladies bathroom. I mentioned religious ladies who need to cover her hair and he understood

[whitianga]

Just to clarify, I'd have no problem helping a 6 year old child (or any age) in a changing room and wouldn't find it an imposition at all. and totally agree that women are generally helpful but i couldn't in good conscience send a child that young in to a changing room alone and expect her to manage (i don't just mean the physical act of getting dressed) all the logistics you mentioned including getting into the shower. When my kid is big enough to say "sorry, i was next for the shower" then he/she is ready to be let in there alone.

It takes a village and all that but not when it comes to a small girl getting naked in front of a room full of strangers - even if they are all women and boys under the age of 8.

[Whatwouldscullydo]

Besides assistance/help has no age or sex or venue restrictions anyway.

[Whatwouldscullydo]

I'd have no problem helping any 6 year old girl that I noticed was on her own in a womens changing room, make sure she gets all the shampoo out of her hair in the communal shower, make sure she doesn't drop her dry clothes on the wet floor, make sure she hasn't left anything behind, etc

I dont mind either. Its a small price to pay to ensure that those men who do respect boundries and wait outside , continue to do so . Its no big deal to turn a hand dryer on or help someone reach the soap or turn on a tap.

[lottiegarbanzo]

So my view is that any man who barges into the women's changing room, for any reason, is not just a thoughtless, arrogant arsehole but is also severely lacking in basic social skills.

Just ask, nicely, when outside the room, for someone to help you. Simple.

[HotSince63]

I'd have no problem helping any 6 year old girl that I noticed was on her own in a womens changing room, make sure she gets all the shampoo out of her hair in the communal shower, make sure she doesn't drop her dry clothes on the wet floor, make sure she hasn't left anything behind, etc.

[lottiegarbanzo]

And actually I think we should be able to rely on random women in changing rooms and public loos to help our daughters. Furthermore, I think we can, we always have and that that is what community and society are.

The atomised, individualistic, selfish society of everybody bobbing about in their own teeny-weeny bubbles, shocked at the idea of bumping into anybody else's, is a very recent phenomenon.

I'm not that old, 40s and I've held babies on trains while strangers sorted out their luggage, helped and had help with luggage, stayed to keep an eye on children who's parents are late to collect them from activities, or who seem to be alone when washing their hands in public loos. I'd be fine about being asked to keep an eye on someone's dd, or might offer. That's normal life.

Women, especially those with DC of their own, are mostly kind and trustworthy with children. (Not every single one, no but when you're in a public place with other women present too, any tiny risk is mitigated).

[lottiegarbanzo]

As for the pp who said random women help her 6 year old in the swimming changing rooms when the father takes her - surely that's not ideal and you shouldn't be relying on the kindness of strangers in this instance.

That'd be me. You've got the wrong end of the stick. Perhaps I didn't explain clearly.

DD was perfectly capable of showering and changing herself, age 6, or she wouldn't have been allowed into the women's alone. She'd have had to continue to go into the men's and change in front of boys, as discreetly as possible, behind a towel, with her Dad's help.

Women are kind and helpful, generally. They find it hard to switch 'kind mode' off. So the women in the changing room didn't ignore dd and let her get on with it completely by herself, they helped a little bit.

When I say 'helped', I mostly mean 'curtailed their own children's natural selfishness' so that not-very-assertive dd could get into the shower before shivering to bits, rather than wait while every other child took as long as they pleased. I don't mean that anyone helped her wash, dry or dress herself. No-one was relying in them to do this.

[Coffeeoverload]

Agreed 100%

[TurquoiseDragon]

@CaraDuneRedux

I see the dick panderers are out in force.

If a man insists on muscling into women's toilets and changing rooms, whatever pretext he's using, he's telling you loud and clear that he's precisely the sort of man who shouldn't be there.

It goes beyond not giving a shit about women's boundaries. I'd it money on 99% of the men who do this getting off on the boundary violation. (Not necessarily sexually, though some will of course; I suspect simply having found a pretext to bully women will be what does it for many).

As for the dick panderers, I suspect most of them were either brought up by a man like this or are married to a man like this. Either way, I don't care that your boundaries are fucked up - that's your problem (though I feel sorry for your daughter's). But my boundaries are not yours to give away.

Despite all the arguments flowing, I keep coming back to this. This is it, for me, in a nutshell.

[whitianga]

When i had two small babies in a double buggy and needed to use the toilet i used the accessible toilet. I don't have a disability or a medical need but i needed the toilet and i couldnt fit my buggy through a regular door nor leave my two tiny children outside the bathroom, ergo i pushed the buggy into the accessible toilet. Not everything is black and white.

As for the pp who said random women help her 6 year old in the swimming changing rooms when the father takes her - surely that's not ideal and you shouldn't be relying on the kindness of strangers in this instance.

[Whatwouldscullydo]

No they are for people who have disabilities/medical reasons. Having children isn't a disability.

They are something fought for for years, and thankfully now something that has to be provided by law

They aren't nor were they ever for people who don't think rules apply to them because they think they are special.

Or to bail men out for not fighting for more or cleaner or better behaviour or whatever in the mens

[whitianga]

Not the point of the OP but accessible toilets are just that, accessible. No one has to justify why they need to use it. Of course there are always people who take the piss but that's life. A dad with 7 year old boy/girl twins is (in my opinion) entitled to use an accessible toilet if he feels both kids are too young to go to the loo alone. If a disabled person arrives to use the loo and has to wait a few minutes then surely that's just the nature of public toilets. There could be someone in there for a completely legitimate reason.

[Whatwouldscullydo]

Honestly man are laughing...

I mean imagine being able to get out of doing everything so easily...and the one time you do take your dd out you get to just walk right into the womens....

Its pathetic. Why are we enabling this crap.

[RufustheSniggeringReindeer]

@Whatwouldscullydo

You use the facility that matches the adult

I remember being at a service station two or three years ago. The queue fir the ladies was huge while the men just walked in then out.

Lots of the women had children with them. Many small enough to have been taken to the mens with their dads. Instead the men just carried on walking past all the women and children.

Honestly its just bull shit, its all just an excuse so that men don't have to look after their children.

This happened to us

To be fair dh was sorting the petrol and paying but when he came looking for us wondering what was taking so long he took the boy children with him

Girl child refused to go but i think she was around the 8/9 mark and hadnt been to the gents in a very long time

[Nancydowns]

These little girls that can't see men weeing, do they never see their dads go toilet? Or naked? We don't need to shield girls from the male body, they just need protecting from the men attached to it. As any girls in the men's will be with her dad, I don't think it's really a problem if she sees a willy is it or will she turn to stone at the sight of a penis.

I'd rather my son didn't have to see blood and used san pro in the women's, but it doesn't give me the right to use the mens just because some women are filthy. Same rules apply for girls in the men's.

[Whatwouldscullydo]

Like when they complain that people are suspicious in the play ground, or that there's no where to get their lid changed at their gym or swim class, or that they are made to feel unwelcome at toddler groups.

Always just manufacturing dilenas enabling them to check out of basics like school runs and taking kids to sports activities.

I mean 2 or three times when I was at a toddler group some men were actively trying to start up a dads group ..course no one was interested because then there would be no excuse to avoid all this stuff...

[lottiegarbanzo]

No.

And yes I'd speak up.

DP takes DD to swimming lessons (private pool) and, ever since she decided she wanted to change in the ladies, aged 6, he sends her in and waits for her outside, ready to de-tangle her hair.

Of course what I discovered on the few occasions I took her, is that other mums facilitate her, making sure she gets a place in the showers etc.

At the public pool it's family changing anyway.

[Whatwouldscullydo]

You use the facility that matches the adult

I remember being at a service station two or three years ago. The queue fir the ladies was huge while the men just walked in then out.

Lots of the women had children with them. Many small enough to have been taken to the mens with their dads. Instead the men just carried on walking past all the women and children.

Honestly its just bull shit, its all just an excuse so that men don't have to look after their children.