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asked to breastfeed in the toilets on train!!

206 replies

Channicholls · 26/06/2013 13:30

i was on a northern rail train yesterday with my 3 month old daughter. she required feeding. I was sat behind my pram and no one could see what I was doing.

When the ticket collector came to check tickets he asked if I could do what I was doing in the toilets. I responded by saying 'what breastfeeding' and he said yes. I told him I was fine where I was and didn't move and he left it. during the whole exchange he had his hand up and was making faces as though what I was doing was perverse.

I was really embarrassed and left feeling extremely uncomfortable and with everyone in the carriage watching me.

I called Northern rail today to make a complaint and was told by them that there was nothing they could do and its down to personal preference of conductors.

what are my next steps? I feel like I was treated badly and that this shouldn't be allowed by such a large company (or anyone for that matter).

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Wishfulmakeupping · 27/06/2013 07:59

Had this email just come through
Your email to Ian Bevan has been passed to me as the manager within our business best placed to answer on this subject.

Firstly, I am aware of the allegations that have been posted on the net, I am also aware that we have started an internal investigation to find out what happened.

However, whatever happened, I feel that I must apologise to our customer to you and to anyone else who has been upset by this incident.

In this subject, the law is clear and that is as a provider of a public service we must not discriminate in any way against a woman because she is breastfeeding. This goes way beyond the law of course, because it must be morally wrong to do so.

You ask about our policy, in truth we don?t have written policy specifically for this subject, because as I say the law is clear, and our guiding principle is to obey this. However to answer your question yes, you are permitted to breastfeed on our services and stations (not that you need our permission), and the last thing that we would want to happen is a mother to feel uncomfortable by doing so, or for a child to go hungry.

I cannot comment about this instance, but you would be right to say that if true we have not followed the Equality Act, and in such circumstances, we will have to review our training and policies. One instance is one too many of course, but I can say that this is the first such instance that I have dealt with on our services.

Nonetheless, I do reiterate my apologies because this is a serious matter and at least one of our customers has been upset by our actions.

Yours sincerely

Pete Myers
Head of Service Quality

Northern Rail Ltd
Northern House
York
YO1 6HZ

T: (01904 56) 8505
E: [email protected]
W: www.northernrail.org

Buy train tickets to anywhere in Great Britain at northernrail.org

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Channicholls · 27/06/2013 08:11

none of their staff that has responded has even acknowlegded the actions of the customers service advisor. they seem to be investigating the initial incident. but thats it. but two members of staff should be being investigated not just one!

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fedupwithdeployment · 27/06/2013 09:25

Hi, I have just had the same email as Wishfulmakupping. I will reply to it including Chanicholls comment.

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Channicholls · 27/06/2013 09:39

Pete has just called my aunt and said that customer relations issue is also being dealt with. :-)

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peekyboo · 27/06/2013 09:42

Brilliant! And it's a very good email too, not the usual standard wiffy-waffle-blurby nonsense you usually get from places.

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notanyanymore · 27/06/2013 09:49

i can't find your group on fb :(

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carolthesecretary · 27/06/2013 10:03

Write to the CEO and link to this thread. We'll back you up! Power of Mumsnet and all that... Wink

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carolthesecretary · 27/06/2013 10:04

Ooh sorry, slightly slow on the advice front here...

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expectingtoomuch · 27/06/2013 10:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Copthallresident · 27/06/2013 10:23

I have had a similar reply, I am satisfied that they will now try to make sure it doesn't happen again


Your email to Ian Bevan has been passed to me as the manager within our business best placed to answer on this subject.

Firstly, I am aware of the allegations that have been posted on the net, I am also aware that we have started an internal investigation to find out what happened.

However, whatever happened, I feel that I must apologise to our customer to you and to anyone else who has been upset by this incident.

In this subject, the law is clear and that is as a provider of a public service we must not discriminate in any way against a woman because she is breastfeeding. This goes way beyond the law of course, because it must be morally wrong to do so.

You ask about our policy, in truth we don?t have written policy specifically for this subject, because as I say the law is clear, and our guiding principle is to obey this.

I cannot comment about this instance, but you would be right to say that if true we have not followed the Equality Act, and in such circumstances, we will have to review our training and policies. One instance is one too many of course, but I can say that this is the first such instance that I have dealt with on our services.

With regard to training, we have spent a great deal of time and effort training and briefing our people with regard to the necessities of the Equality Act. Nevertheless, it is a wide ranging piece of legislation so we have been in touch with our head of training who will review this to ensure that we have covered all of the aspects of the Act, and of course see what can be learned from the events of Tuesday.

Nonetheless, I do reiterate my apologies because this is a serious matter and at least one of our customers has been upset by our actions.

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Lomaamina · 27/06/2013 21:35

I think that reads as a very heartfelt apology. Not the usual bland nonsense. Well done them.

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Channicholls · 27/06/2013 23:29

I think the only person not to have received an apology email is me lol.

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GrimmaTheNome · 28/06/2013 09:14

That's a bit odd - do they have your email? If not, if Pete is following the thread maybe he could try the Message Poster link next to the OPs posts.

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TanglednotTamed · 28/06/2013 09:24

Glad Northern Rail is taking this seriously. I travel with them quite often and have breastfed three babies on their trains over the years without incident.

I'd be horribly shocked at a conductor behaving the way this one did - and equally so at another member of staff saying that's down to conductor preference. Hopefully both members of staff will be set right, and Northern Rail will ensure this doesn't happen again.

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Wishfulmakeupping · 28/06/2013 09:25

That's bizarre OP what contact have they made so far with you?

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Channicholls · 28/06/2013 09:34

Just an email asking what happened which I responded to and haven't heard anything since.

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Copthallresident · 28/06/2013 09:37

OP our apology emails were quicker to write, since they are statements of policy which reassuringly is clearly not a matter of dispute or ambiguity. They will need to talk to the Conductor and other people you interfaced with to gather the information needed to write to you fully. Having said that a simple we are sorry you were upset and are doing a, b, and c to investigate would be good form. Hope you get some satisfaction soon.

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Witt · 28/06/2013 09:43

I have tweeted and retweeted.

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Channicholls · 29/06/2013 07:07

This is the apology I received which would have been more genuine if not accompanied with lies and excuses from both parties involved in this! However, it is an apology none of the less lol

Dear Ms Nicholls

I am away from the office and therefore can only pick up messages by email, but I understand that four days have elapsed since the incident and as I have spoken to those involved, I felt that it was only fair that I contacted you now before the weekend.

Before I do anything else, I feel that I should wholeheartedly apologise, because whatever happened in your case I feel we have not been as effective in communicating with you as we ought. I must take some blame for this because even yesterday when I spoke to your aunt; I initially believed that I would be speaking to you. When I realised that it wasn?t possible to speak to you, perhaps in hindsight I should have asked for your phone number so I could call you direct.

I will try to address both parts of your complaint that of the interaction that you had on the train and the response that you had from our Customer Relations people.

I also apologise if any of the following seems cold or uncaring, that is not my intention and it certainly will not be a case of me believing our employees before our customers, but these are the facts made available to me and gleaned from my investigation into the case.

Firstly, let me reiterate the plain facts, under the auspices of the Equality Act you are perfectly permitted to breastfeed on our trains and stations (not that you need any permission), and indeed anywhere else that you may wish to do so.

So why did our conductor suggest that you feed your child in the washroom on the train? On speaking to him, he states that you were being overlooked by two, what he describes as, teenagers standing holding cycles, and he felt that your close proximity to these individuals may have caused you some embarrassment; therefore, he offered you the use of the washroom as an alternative, as he thought he was offering you some privacy if you would have wanted it.

Was he right in doing so? The answer is clearly no, he should not have said anything, or if you had complained then asked these youths (who incidentally are probably unaware of these events) to vacate the area.

Why did he act in this way, I believe that it was done with the best intentions; but his actions made you feel embarrassed and discriminated against so of course they were wrong.

In cases like this, I always look into past cases, and ask the individual?s line manager ?is this typical of him/her?. In this case, it must be said that we have no history of poor customer service and I can honestly say that this employee has no past complaints lodged against him. Furthermore, his manager describes him as a good and friendly employee who normally provides very high levels of customer service.

I will also add that our employee is very upset that his actions caused you distress, and emphasises that he thought that he was helping you gain privacy.

None of this makes his actions right, but I do think that the facts are pertinent.

Now to talk about Customer Relations, the case here seems to be their apparent refusal to take you accusations over the phone and our request that you put them in writing. This is the right thing to do, because you made a very serious allegation against an employee, which needed to be investigated, the only way to do this is to get your account in writing, we then use this (with all of your personal details redacted) to interview our people and to find out what happened from their standpoint.

I have spoken to the team in Customer Relations and they deny saying that they said that it was the Conductor?s discretion whether to permit breastfeeding on their train. Of course, this would be a strange thing to say, because the law is the law and they have been trained in the requirements of the Equality Act.

They did say that the exchange became heated and I am truly sorry that this was the case, because in Customer Relations we have a clear duty to change negatives into positives and to help those who contact us. We failed in your case, so as I say I am sorry.

What are we going to learn from this case? I feel that is vital that we learn from this sad case, I said in my previous statements that cases like this are rare, and indeed I have never come across one before, but one case is one too many, so it must not happen again.

The Equality Act is a large piece of legalisation and focus is often put onto the aspects that used to be known as ?disability discrimination?, so perhaps our people need to be re-briefed about their duties towards people in your situation who need to feed their children. Therefore, I have asked our safety team to produce a brief for all those who work on our trains and stations to make it perfectly clear what is expected of them and what our customers deserve.

Finally, I hope that I can fully appreciate the situation that you found yourself in last Tuesday, and considering this, I would be quite willing to offer you a free travel for two people on our services, for a period of three months. Please believe me, that I offer this not in an attempt to placate you in anyway; but rather as a genuine gesture of goodwill, as I imagine your confidence in the rail industry in general has been knocked to a certain extent by the experience. I hope that you can use the opportunity to have an enjoyable trip somewhere on our network, and at the same time regain some confidence in our industry.

If you wish to take advantage of this goodwill gesture, please let me know and we will make the necessary arrangements to get a ticket out to you.

As you know, this case has created a great deal of interest on the internet and particularly on ?mumsnet? (which I must say I had never looked at before, but which is very impressive indeed). I was impressed with the interest that your comments created and am only sorry that our apparent inability to answer your case forced you into what must be an uncomfortable position in having use such a public media.

To close, we were wrong in how our employee interacted with you on the train, and whatever happened with your interchange with Customer Relations, you were clearly unhappy with the experience so we were wrong again.

Do I believe that we have a problem in Northern Rail concerning this subject? As I say above this is the first such complaint of this nature that I have dealt with, but also, as I say your experience was one too many, and I reiterate my apologies to you and to whoever else may have been offended by these actions.

I am aware that an email hardly does this case justice, and I would be happy to meet with you if you feel that this would be useful, please let me know some convenient dates, times and locations and I will do my best to comply.

Thank you for your patience in this matter, and I hope that this reply helps to reassure you that we take this subject and our duties to all our customers seriously.

Yours sincerely

Pete Myers
Head of Service Quality

Northern Rail Ltd
Northern House
York
YO1 6HZ

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giantpenguinmonster · 29/06/2013 07:35

This is quite an annoying apology IMHO- even ignoring the denials. I'm not a breastfeeding nazi by any stretch but all the emails have used the word 'permitted' regarding breastfeeding.

Perhaps in your reply you should suggest that Northern Rail goes beyond the letter of the law (although adhering to that would be a start!) and recognises that breastfeeding is normal, good for babies and bloody hard to do. They need to retrain their staff to make it easier on mums. Sorting out seats if need be, giving people privacy and respect. And free water/biscuits wouldn't go amiss either.

I think you have the ear of the company OP. Go for it!

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MrsSiba · 29/06/2013 07:44

I'm impressed by Pete's apology, seems genuine and clear.

However he has made the conductor look like even more of a twunt suggesting he thought you needed privacy from some youths.....why not tell the youths to grow up and move somewhere else? He is also missing the point - bf is natural not a dirty perversion reserved for behind closed doors.

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Wowserz129 · 29/06/2013 08:43

What an unacceptable reply. Firstly, why on earth would the conductor say you can use the toilets because there was young teenagers around when you haven't asked/complained/said you felt embarrassed? It doesn't make sense and it doesn't make it anymore acceptable. It doesn't change the fact that the employee clearly doesn't know the law regarding breastfeeding as he would have addressed it clearer to you at the time.

It's an apology none the less but it just reads like its full of excuses to me and doesn't highlight anywhere they are going to improve there services regarding this. Hmm

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EhricLovesTeamQhuay · 29/06/2013 09:43

It's not a bad letter, but it's clear that both the conductor and the customer services operatives have fibbed to cover up their mistakes. Do you remember any bicycling youths? Even if there had been, his intervention was completely inappropriate and insensitive. The correct repose to a breastfeeding woman as a customer service operative, is to ignore the fact that she is breastfeeding and interact with her as normal. Unless she is struggling in some way and you can offer aid, do not mention it. There is no need. The idea that the OP needed protection from some youths is absurd, and patronising; if she had needed to move she would have done so. So there was no need whatsoever for the conductor to bring h breastfeeding to anyone's attention, thereby potentially making her feel self conscious or ashamed, even if his intentions had been helpful (which I don't believe).

Secondly, the customer service operative who took the call denies making the inflammatory statement yet acknowledges that the exchange became heated. If they did not tell the OP that the conductor had the right to ask her to breastfeed in the toilets - what was the heated exchange about? I would be interested to know their explanation for that.

Thirdly, the OP is not a fool, she knows what happened and in what context. It is very easy to distinguish between an unnecessary but helpfully intended suggestion, and an intrusive and offensive objection to the act of breastfeeding. To suggest that she misunderstood the conductor's intent is patronising and offensive. I appreciate that the company must support their employees but I hope that behind the scenes somebody has acknowledged the reality and seriousness of this situation and is providing training or supervisory measures as necessary, to all staff members involved.

Pete - are you still reading?

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DoodleAlley · 29/06/2013 09:49

My four year old can do better apologies than that!

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DoodleAlley · 29/06/2013 09:50

A proper acceptance of culpability or errors seems noticeably absent.

In my books that means its not an apology!

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