Blog Debate with Louise Mensch and Glosswitch: can you dress for men, and still be a feminist?

[KateMumsnet]

Hello

Can you dress for men, and still be a feminist? In today's guest blog, two forthright MN bloggers debate the question.

Louise Mensch is the novelist and outspoken former Tory MP for Corby, who resigned her seat last August in order to move to New York, where her husband is based. She recently launched her blog Unfashionista (subtitled "the lazy girl's guide to gloss"), in which she has written controversially about feminism, fashion - and why women should dress in a way that their male partner finds attractive.

Challenging her position is Mumsnet blogger and contributor to the New Statesman and the Guardian, Glosswitch. She writes about feminism, family and pretty much anything else you care to mention over on her blog, Glosswatch (subtitled "humourless mummy, cuddly feminist").

Read the debate, and tell us where you stand here on the thread - and don't forget to post your URL if you blog on this issue.

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[Xenia]

As Mini says on my economic power point that is when things will be better. The interesting point however is that most women even very successful ones seem to marry men who are on a par or earn more. I don't know the income earning differential between the LM husbands 1 and 2 but probably no 2 has more money and certainly will earn more than LM, whereas many a male UK MP is happy with his secretary as his wife. ]

However we are moving to a situation where 60% of graduates are female in the UK and women up to age 30 earn more than men and there are more women under 40 worth £1m+ than men so the tide is turning. If successful women of 40 choose the good looking younger man as plenty do once they do not need men for money then things will change and women will not only retain men through their looks.

[stepawayfromthescreen]

the 'commercial aspect to housewifery????
Really Xenia, really?
You have a deep seated phobia of any sahm or any woman who earns less than her partner.

[MiniTheMinx]

Although I wouldn't be flattered by a twenty something adonis after my money

[AnyFucker]

christ, no

I wouldn't be happy for my hard earned dosh to be supporting some pretty-faced, callow yoof

unless it's my son

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

louisianablue2000 - Just check out Peter Mensch on wikipedia. I suspect if I was wife no 3 I'd be a bit insecure about keeping my husband as well. Personally I'm happy being wife no 1 to my lovely nerdy DH who has no idea what clothes I have on but loves telling people how smart I am and what a good career I have.

Here's my advice: marry a man who loves you for your brain. You get to wear comfortable shoes and don't have to worry about him running off with a younger woman.

^ This ^

I feel more than a bit sorry for you Louise. I couldn't be in a relationship with a man so shallow, especially as he's no oil painting himself. I've never met an 'alpha male' who wasn't a wanker.

Your looks will fade and what then?

I make lots of effort for DP - for us that means making time for each other to talk, listen, cuddle and have a laugh.

He likes me best in clothes he can get off easily

[hellsbells76]

Have you read any of her books? Apart from being hilariously, cringingly badly written, they're FULL of blonde, English rose types banging on about what principled feminists they are while simultaneously acting in the least feminist ways possible (trampling over other women or using the patronage of besotted older men to further their careers, sleeping with other women's husbands etc etc). I've always found this cognitive dissonance in her writing and her life rather fascinating in a car-crash kind of way. It's like you can behave in whatever handmaideny fashion you like, as long as you do it while loudly self-identifying as a feminist.

[StephanieLaws84]

dont we women like to dress up anyway?
i like to look nice and make a effort for my husband (and for myself!!!). and i like it that he takes care of himself.
We have 5 kids all together and i also know that if i dont feel like 'dressing up' i just stay in bed on a sunday morning and then enjoy the rest of the day with the kids and my husband.
i am only 29 and i never think about feminism. but i have a relationship where i feel respected and absolutely unconditionally loved. and my husband would admit to anyone that even though he is a 'alpha male' i am actually the one who is the boss and as all these feminists would say 'wear the trousers' .. but things like that just make me smile and i dont see them as important....
but for all these women who think they have to attack Louise in such a way. maybe she just mastered this subject about feminism and lives her life and just enjoys it... rather then constantly feeling like she has to fight her corner as a women.

[KristinaM]

" but for all these women who think they have to attack Louise in such a way"

Maybe they don't think they have to attack her, Stephanie. Maybe they just disagree with her .

Perhaps because she has taken things that she likes to do eg " I like to blow dry my hair" and extrapolated them into general principles " all women everywhere must blow dry their hair " and that they " owe it" to their men to do so and suggests it s a " basic truism of a loving relationship"

And because she refuses to accept the many posters on this thread who state that that their relationships with their partners are not fundamentally based on the hairstyles, make up, clothes and figures of either of them . And that " a blow dry and very light make up " are not actually what every man everywhere in the world finds attractive . Despite the fact that many of them have a much better track record of making relationships work than Louise and her current husband

[Xenia]

Stephanie, that is fair. It is when LM says men need not bother (presumably because they have more money and are male) and a woman's place is to dress to please a man she differs from your fair equal mutually pleasing view. That is when it becomes anti feminist. Men pay and in return women look good - a commercial bargain - in the LM world and women follow men and men earn the big bucks. That is what needs to change and is changing as more and more women earn more than men.

Equality tends to make most people happier.

[Vegehamwidge]

i am actually the one who is the boss and as all these feminists would say 'wear the trousers'
Sorry but I really doubt that feminists are the ones who would use that sexist phrase.

[TooExtraImmatureCheddar]

Stephanie, many women do not like to dress up. I know some who hate dressing up and always wear baggy plain clothes, flat shoes, don't use any makeup, only brush their hair to make it neat etc etc. Please do not generalise in a patronising way about 'we women'. For what it's worth, I do like dressing up, but I am aware that not everyone does.

Louise, this is bullshit pure and simple. Now, if you had said that men and women have a duty to themselves to look after themselves and remain healthy (as far as possible), then you would have been right. I mean taking care of themselves, not exercising or dieting to extremes. But you make it all about the superficiality of looks, which is very wrong. Why the hell should I wear fitted clothes if I don't want to? Or strive to maintain a self that no longer suits me? A woman who dresses sexily or stylishly in her youth, pays a lot of attention to her appearance etc etc may grow up to be a very different person in later life. She may no longer place so much value on physical appearance and have the confidence to go out in scruffy joggers with unwashed hair because she doesn't care what other people think of her. She may have the confidence (shock horror) to lounge around her own house in whatever feels comfiest or is appropriate to what she's doing. And she may have a husband who appreciates that and doesn't think oh well, she's been wearing scruffy clothes for three days so I'm off now, seeya. Have a

[StephanieDA]

There is no evidence of different gender 'hard-wiring', in fact the whole concept of hard-wiring is a bit misleading as our brains are so plastic (especially children's, but throughout life) that even basic genetic inheritance is only a 'potential' which can change depending on socialisation and experience. Neuroscience and brain-imaging can only tell us about socialised brains, as all brains are socialised.
So a stronger visual reaction in men does not prove that this reaction is 'biological' or 'innate', it would more likely be learned behaviour as that's what men are supposed to do. And one thing we do know is that both sexes soak up clues about their gender and how they are supposed to behave from parents, society and experience. We make gender differences a big deal in this society, not gender similarities, and children absorb those messages constantly.
Anecdotally, I hear lots of women expressing a very visual appreciation of men. Maybe we should just be looking at human beings; for some appearance is very important and for some it is not. But it's only men who have been socialised into high expectations and an entitlement to be with an attractive partner.

[KaseyM]

Women are just as visual as men, it's just they've been brought up to believe that wolfwhistling and general objectification of men is a sign of a desperate woman, whilst men are more likely to feel a sense of entitlement.

Women have been taught that in order to deserve sex, they have to be sexy. Men aren't. That's the diff.

[Xenia]

One thing we can be sure of is the LM children will be modelled a rather sexist set up and grow up to have sexist views.

[stepawayfromthescreen]

Xenia, you've said before on several occasions that you think maternity leave is sexist and you returned to work almost as soon as the placenta was out.
As a result, I can't take a single thing you say seriously because your views set feminism back a hundred years. You can call yourself a feminist, but that doesn't mean you are a feminist.

[stepawayfromthescreen]

and I've no doubt you've raised your kids to look down on the lowly surfs who provide you with the 'dross drudgery labour' so feel you are not really qualified to lecture LM on her parenting when yours is so far from perfect!

[scottishmummy]

I've never dressed for a man,I dress in attire I like and that's appropriate to the setting
work attire is different to social attire.like most people I adapt and regulate
certainly I ask dp does this look ok?but I'm not seeking approval and he not got a veto

[scottishmummy]

I won't be lectured to by someone who gives up career enacts wee wifey role
and fwiw lm didn't give up at HOP as was family unfriendly.her dh was relocating to USA
she trades on her looks(that's her choice) but don't assume everyone else does too

[BristolBanshee]

Noone is being lectured Scottish Mummy, FFS. Louise wrote a blog and glosswitch took issue. MN then rubbed their grubby hands together and thought they'd have this thread. The way Louise has been treated here is, quite frankly, vile and the way that many outsiders see MN.

I think the, unpleasant, truth is most people can't trade on their looks. I can't imagine someone who projects a nasty persona has a very nice face, so it's unlikely that anyone was attracted to her for her looks.... therefore it's not part of the deal. If you're widely thought of as attractive then that becomes part of your "offer".

[BristolBanshee]

Xenia Thu 06-Jun-13 22:37:26
One thing we can be sure of is the LM children will be modelled a rather sexist set up and grow up to have sexist views.


Absolute bullshit. Pretty certain that your household growing up or that of your grandparents were sexist, hell they may have even been pleasant, but you can't say all has been passed to you, can you?

[scottishmummy]

you're a bit het up Bristol.over an ex mp who's usp is her looks

[RippingYarns]

believe me, Bristol the general consensus seen here about la Mensch isn't confined to MN

it's in RL too

[BristolBanshee]

Not het up, love. Her USP clearly isn't her looks, I'm not sure looks get you elected, but she is beautiful and has possibly been told that her whole life. I'm guessing you haven't, otherwise I think you would understand.

[scottishmummy]

you're a little ball of anger,Bristol
fortunately I don't need to trade on looks alone
I'm intellectual and bonnie without need to dress for men