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Jan Morris has died

(74 Posts)
Needmoresleep Sat 21-Nov-20 20:02:36

A Mail obit, because I don’t have a Times subscription and can’t face reading the Guardian one. (It may be OK, it might not.)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8972175/RICHARD-KAY-Jan-Morris-really-boldest-adventurer.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8972175/RICHARD-KAY-Jan-Morris-really-boldest-adventurer.html

I remember reading Conundrum when I was a teenager, along with several of the travel books. The book offered a real window into the pressure on someone with gender dysphoria and it would be hard not to feel sympathy. I wonder what she thought of the current mess.

OP’s posts: |
Escapeplanning Sat 21-Nov-20 20:11:00

And this is relevant to feminism how?

BlackWaveComing Sat 21-Nov-20 21:01:56

I guarantee the amount of time I've spent trying to understand gender dysphoria far outweighs the amount of time JM spent pondering the lives and challenges of female creatives.

Person had successful, long life. Great. Not sure what it has to do with feminism.

Needmoresleep Sat 21-Nov-20 21:30:21

I think she occasionally posted here.

There is an awful lot posted on this board about transgenderism. I though it might be interesting to look back to a ‘sex change’ pioneer. But do ignore if you don’t agree.

OP’s posts: |
NeonIcedcoffee Sat 21-Nov-20 21:34:38

Prominent woman writer's death is r elevant to feminism I'd think? @Escapeplanning

DidoLamenting Sat 21-Nov-20 21:40:55

Here's The Times' obituary.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jan-morris-obituary-bmpj00khv

There were some rather nasty "gender critical" posts on it this morning. There was a ridiculously irrelevant TRA post but it seems to have been deleted.

OldCrone Sat 21-Nov-20 21:42:28

I thought this bit from the Guardian obituary was interesting:

" in the New York Times, Rebecca West admitted that “now we are both women he mystifies me”. Noting acerbically that, as a man, “he had all the pleasures he wanted”, West questioned the validity of Morris’s identity: “She sounds not like a woman, but like a man’s idea of a woman, and curiously enough, the idea of a man not nearly so intelligent as James Morris used to be"

Middle aged man transitions after marrying a woman and fathering children. This has been discussed here many times.

www.theguardian.com/books/2020/nov/20/jan-morris-historian-travel-writer-and-trans-pioneer-dies-aged-94

BlackWaveComing Sat 21-Nov-20 21:43:08

NeonIcedcoffee

Prominent woman writer's death is r elevant to feminism I'd think? *@Escapeplanning*

Not a woman.

Transwomen, whose career launched itself very nicely on her male privilege.

NativityDreaming Sat 21-Nov-20 21:43:38

Make writers aren’t generally relevant to feminism.

jessstan1 Sat 21-Nov-20 21:43:40

She was a magical travel writer. I didn't realise she was so old! I sort of imagined her to be in her late seventies. She did well.

DidoLamenting Sat 21-Nov-20 21:53:01

NativityDreaming

Make writers aren’t generally relevant to feminism.

Really? What a blinkered thing to say. Why do Graham Linehan, Robert Webb and Gavin de Becker get regular shout outs on here?

BlackWaveComing Sat 21-Nov-20 22:00:59

You missed the 'generally'.

Male writers who write about, or in support of, feminism, may be marginally relevant, depending on the quality of their argument.

Generally not.

DidoLamenting Sat 21-Nov-20 22:07:24

BlackWaveComing

You missed the 'generally'.

Male writers who write about, or in support of, feminism, may be marginally relevant, depending on the quality of their argument.

Generally not.

It's still blinkered-but your choice obviously.

BlackWaveComing Sat 21-Nov-20 22:12:04

So tiresome.

JM did not write on feminism. JM was not a woman. Her obit isn't relevant here. Maybe on a travel forum, or a writer's forum, or a general interest forum, or a trans pioneer forum.

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse Sat 21-Nov-20 22:17:14

This is the Feminist section. JM's obituary isn't relevant here.

DidoLamenting Sun 22-Nov-20 00:28:45

Needmoresleep

I think she occasionally posted here.

There is an awful lot posted on this board about transgenderism. I though it might be interesting to look back to a ‘sex change’ pioneer. But do ignore if you don’t agree.

I didn't know she posted here. I agree with you that it is interesting; especially given about half of this forum is given over to trans issues.

fatblackcatspaw Sun 22-Nov-20 00:33:42

I find it utterly preposterous the suggestion that Morris posted on Mumsnet. I suspect that they were not internet savvy being 90 plus.

Bloodybridget Sun 22-Nov-20 02:42:14

Oh come on, not internet savvy! Why on earth shouldn't she have been? The Internet has been in wide use for maybe 30 years? This is not intended as a comment on the relevance or otherwise of mentioning her death here, nor does my use of pronoun indicate that I believe TWAW.

unwashedanddazed Sun 22-Nov-20 02:53:35

"My life has been one whole self-centred exercise in self-satisfaction!"

Quite.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55021555

Needmoresleep Sun 22-Nov-20 10:17:22

Is there a reason for this aggressive tone? I have been on this board a while, and once saw reference to the fact that Jan Morris had posted in the very early, FWR, days.

This thread is providing interesting. I posted as, prior to GRA reform proposals I, like most people, was sympathetic to what were known as transsexuals. In my case influenced by reading Jan Morris' book as a teenager. I remain, and want to remain, sympathetic to the roughly 5,000 people who were protected by that act, and am pleased when people like Rose of Dawn speak up.

My concern is the 300,000-500,000 (all figures are Government ones) who would fall under the provisions of the self-ID proposals. The implications for younger teenagers, sport and women's safety are huge.

Jan Morris is someone who seems to have lived her best life. Giving up the position they held within the Establishment to an uncertain future of prejudice in very different times, was huge. As well as undergoing risky surgery. I do not understand that compulsion at all, but I can accept that something was driving her.

I am depressed at some of the negative and/or aggressive comments, and the lack of tolerance. I don't care what other people do as long as their behaviour does not affect others. If there is a conflict of rights, there has to be discussion. I can understand that some people fear that Jan Morris somehow coerced their wife into staying, but we don't know that. We do know that had the wife wanted to leave, there would have been good grounds for divorce.

It appears that some posters believe they should police this board and tell us what feminism involves, and how women should think. Sorry not my thing. Rather than scold perhaps they should ignore this thread and return to their safe spaces.

OP’s posts: |
Needmoresleep Sun 22-Nov-20 10:18:38

Sorry I was replying to fatblackpaw and I find it utterly preposterous the suggestion that Morris posted on Mumsnet. I suspect that they were not internet savvy being 90 plus.

OP’s posts: |
Barracker Sun 22-Nov-20 10:29:17

I'm wondering if the Mumsnet censorship rules on not hurting men's feelings by referring to them as men or he, still apply posthumously?

Does anyone know?

everythingcrossed Sun 22-Nov-20 10:30:24

^ I can understand that some people fear that Jan Morris somehow coerced their wife into staying, but we don't know that. We do know that had the wife wanted to leave, there would have been good grounds for divorce.^

I think the marriage had to be dissolved because marriage between two women was not allowed in the early 70s. Elizabeth stayed with Jan and they had a civil partnership ceremony when those were introduced - it seems unlikely that she was coerced into it, doesn't it?

I thought the Rebecca West quote was hugely interesting - it chimes so much with the way women are perceived by some trans women rather than how they are.

Tanith Sun 22-Nov-20 10:34:31

Well, I'm glad to see the acknowledgement! Thank you for posting it, Op.

MishyJDI Sun 22-Nov-20 10:40:23

Needmoresleep

Is there a reason for this aggressive tone? I have been on this board a while, and once saw reference to the fact that Jan Morris had posted in the very early, FWR, days.

This thread is providing interesting. I posted as, prior to GRA reform proposals I, like most people, was sympathetic to what were known as transsexuals. In my case influenced by reading Jan Morris' book as a teenager. I remain, and want to remain, sympathetic to the roughly 5,000 people who were protected by that act, and am pleased when people like Rose of Dawn speak up.

My concern is the 300,000-500,000 (all figures are Government ones) who would fall under the provisions of the self-ID proposals. The implications for younger teenagers, sport and women's safety are huge.

Jan Morris is someone who seems to have lived her best life. Giving up the position they held within the Establishment to an uncertain future of prejudice in very different times, was huge. As well as undergoing risky surgery. I do not understand that compulsion at all, but I can accept that something was driving her.

I am depressed at some of the negative and/or aggressive comments, and the lack of tolerance. I don't care what other people do as long as their behaviour does not affect others. If there is a conflict of rights, there has to be discussion. I can understand that some people fear that Jan Morris somehow coerced their wife into staying, but we don't know that. We do know that had the wife wanted to leave, there would have been good grounds for divorce.

It appears that some posters believe they should police this board and tell us what feminism involves, and how women should think. Sorry not my thing. Rather than scold perhaps they should ignore this thread and return to their safe spaces.

Agreed. Sadly, some on here are so wound up in the idea of transpeople being a threat to feminism and their rights that they are just blinkered to a default position and attack anything that challenges that view.

If anything trans people and gender fluid challenge the patriarchal boundaries that keep us all enslaved.

Jan Morris was a pioneer in many ways and should be respected for her work. (I am using her preferred pronouns - and guess what that didn't hurt me!) lols

But this is the internet, and it is rare to be able to get people to think about an entrenched position in a new way and be open to something different. That requires effort in thinking....

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