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Discrimination on the basis of my gender identity....

(25 Posts)
SometimesLateAtNight Tue 28-Jul-20 20:39:15

I’ve just been asked via Facebook (friend of friend of friend) to fill in a survey as part of a wider university dissertation. Subject- what if any discrimination have you experienced in mountaineering/hill walking/outdoor pursuits as a result of your gender identity.

I’m very confused as to what the survey maker means or wants from me. (Note, there is no free text box..... sadly!)

Its one area I haven’t faced any discrimination on the basis of my sex, which isn’t what it’s asking about anyway.

I am a biological woman and haven’t faced any discrimination of the basis of being trans and feeling that I am biologically a man, because I’m not and I don’t. (Regards of how people feel about trans issues etc, I totally see that some people in real life might take issue with trans individuals and that there might be discrimination involved).

So how the hell do I answer about gender?What is it even asking me, if it’s separating sex from gender in this way??!! Is it honestly trying to suggest that I might not be ‘girl-ing’ in a feminine enough way? Or, that I might be ‘girl-ing’ in a TOO feminine way? Ugh I’m so over this stuff.

OP’s posts: |
Cascade220 Tue 28-Jul-20 20:56:10

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

midgebabe Tue 28-Jul-20 21:02:58

If I walk alone I quite often get "helpful" men asking if I am ok. I think that sex not gender however as you can't really tell the gender identity of anyone by looking

midgebabe Tue 28-Jul-20 21:05:27

Unless of course being incompetent with map reading is considered a sign of femininity???

SometimesLateAtNight Tue 28-Jul-20 21:07:07

I just don't fill out surveys and research requests that ask such nonsensical questions anymore

I think that’s maybe the way forward!

OP’s posts: |
Antibles Tue 28-Jul-20 21:11:18

People often say good morning or good afternoon to me when I'm walking. How do they know what time of day I'm identifying as being at? Especially when I'm on holiday and quite relaxed about these things. Bloody phobes. Walking's riddled with it.

SometimesLateAtNight Tue 28-Jul-20 21:15:31

If I walk alone I quite often get "helpful" men asking if I am ok. I think that sex not gender however as you can't really tell the gender identity of anyone by looking

Well... I think the survey - if I’m understanding it properly - has irked me because it does somehow suggest that identifying as ‘female’ in gender makes it more likely I would face discrimination. But like.... what version of female does it mean?? A male view of female, where I’m basically Elle Woods, traipsing up a hill in unsuitable fluffy kitten heels? Or as you say, presumably unable to figure out a map with my little lady brain? What vague idea of what it is to
be ‘female’ is it that I am supposed to identify with that would fall into these categories?

Is it too much to think that I may share a sex with every other woman and be discriminated against or not on that basis, but that I may have absolutely no other traits likes or dislikes in common with the next ‘female’ on the mountain? What gender identity do we supposedly share? Honestly my heads wasted with it all and I feel truly sorry for my girls when they grow up.

OP’s posts: |
Beamur Tue 28-Jul-20 21:20:07

Reply and say you don't understand the terms.

midgebabe Tue 28-Jul-20 21:20:40

Wouldn't identifying as female make you less likely to suffer gender discrimination because people would be treating you according to the gender with which you identify? Because being of the female sex, the default is to treat you as female gender if ( and only if) you are in the habit of treating people according to gender

Does anyone have a list of the capabilities and behaviours I should be expressing if I want to identify as female so that I can more easily recognise when people are making gender based assumptions as opposed to sex ones?

SometimesLateAtNight Tue 28-Jul-20 21:21:27

Sorry I suspect I’m explaining myself very poorly. I think what I’m trying to say is- I totally get how I can be discriminated against as a women, because of my sex. I do not understand how I can be discriminated against because of my gender identity, and take issue with how it appears, to me, to lump all women into one big homogenous ‘female’ group, and to suggest that there’s one way to be ‘female’. It saddens me that this suggestion is being broadcast in a survey to a group of women who may be left feeling different, or less than, if they aren’t particularly feminine in manner. Particularly if those are young women, which many of the intended respondents are.

OP’s posts: |
SometimesLateAtNight Tue 28-Jul-20 21:27:20

Wouldn't identifying as female make you less likely to suffer gender discrimination because people would be treating you according to the gender with which you identify? Because being of the female sex, the default is to treat you as female gender if ( and only if) you are in the habit of treating people according to gender

Oh, that’s interesting. Perhaps that is the meaning behind it? Since I AM a women though, and present as one.... how on earth would anyone know if my gender identity was otherwise? And therefore how could they discriminate against me on that basis? As I say, they can discriminate against me for being biologically female - it’s obvious I am. Or, for being trans (if I was) as I would be more than likely be obviously trans. But conflicting gender identity....? Unless I tell them??!

I can’t respond and ask for clarification, it’s just a link to a survey with no free text boxes. I can complete it or not, at the moment, I’m not because I’ve no bloody idea what it wants of me and I’m annoyed!

OP’s posts: |
Alienin Tue 28-Jul-20 21:32:12

Could you imagine even trying to go hill walking in kitten heels? confused

ContentiousOne Tue 28-Jul-20 21:38:28

You don't understand because the concept 'gender identity' is nonsensical.

The questioners don't know what they are asking. Or if they do, they are too coy to use plain English.

Chuck it, OP..

Beamur Tue 28-Jul-20 21:40:49

It's a poor questionnaire if it's unclear what it is trying to gather data on.

Portnlemon Tue 28-Jul-20 21:41:38

It's a nonsense question. It is assuming gender identity is normalised when it's not.

The survey can't be completed by anyone not "identified with a gender" and the equally dogmatic "cisgender" again makes it unanswerable. I would respond to the person who sent it to you explaining that you are not the intended recipient of this survey as it's about identity and you don't experience life that way.

WhereYouLeftIt Tue 28-Jul-20 21:54:05

I'd just punt it back to them and ask them to explain the question. And repeat, repeat until their head explodes.

Portnlemon Tue 28-Jul-20 22:35:37

I would not waste my time trying to explode someone's head. It's enough to say that you are not the target audience because gender identity isn't something that has any relevance to your life.

nepeta Wed 29-Jul-20 00:15:02

I agree with the others that the question is a total mess because some people are using 'female' and 'male' as identities having no connection to biological sex but the vast majority is not.

Even on a more analytical level, you probably can't be discriminated on the basis of your gender identity. If you have that rare beast and it matches your sex, then any discrimination you might experience is because of your sex. If you have that rare beast and it doesn't match your sex, then any discrimination is because it doesn't match your sex. So in both cases this would really be about sex discrimination.

I have no idea how all those people are supposed to answer who don't believe in a gender identity in the first place. And it could be the case that if someone's gender identity is, say, teacups on Tuesday, or something else quite made up, then that person might get ridiculed for just that identity.

But the latter really doesn't seem to be a problem wort studying.

IAintentDead Wed 29-Jul-20 00:24:28

Where possible if a form asks a stupid irrelevant question then I stop completing the form and if possible inform the originators why.

Strangely, If I am walking, in trousers and anorak with my hood up and lots of layers so my underlying shape is not apparent - everyone knows I am a woman, that is adult female human. I don't have to 'identify' because it is clear who/what I am.

NiceGerbil Wed 29-Jul-20 00:57:38

Can you reply and ask them if the survey is looking to understand

People's experiences due to their sex

Or due to their trans status

I mean it's not clear.

This is interesting as previously pretty much everyone is relying on the conflation of sex and gender on forms for years to reply about their sex unless they are trans. Poor way too get stats but that's been the approach. A cop out.

This is different. They specify gender identity.

So if you were eg a non binary female who presented as female, and you got some shit. How do you answer?

Why is no one in all these orgs realising they need to be more specific? Even if you're on board with gender id this still makes no sense!

nepeta Wed 29-Jul-20 03:46:29

NiceGerbil, your question "So if you were eg non binary female who presented as female, and you got some shit. How do you answer?" is a good one to show the confusion.

Most of the shit, probably all of it, would come from looking female so from sexism. But it might be attributed to the way they (?) identify, though inner identification under those conditions would not show any difference to women who haven't bothered to identify out of their gender group. Among those who know about this person's identity, of course, it could cause irritation and cause them to be mistreated, because in some ways it does come across as asking special rights and privileges over and above the ones others get by custom.

But the central reason why I am worried about much of the goals of the gender theorists is that if they are successful sex-based oppression will disappear while we still can talk about race- and class-based oppression. And to add insult to injury, to express concerns about this is transphobic.

BowlerHatPowerHat Wed 29-Jul-20 09:48:40

If your 'gender identity' is an inner belief/feeling then surely nobody can tell your gender identity just by the way you look/dress.
So unless you announce your pronouns to every passing hill walker how would they know who to discriminate against.

BaronEssoStation Wed 29-Jul-20 10:57:38

Wainwright used to get some "right funny looks" whenever he wore his kitten-heels on the fells.

He mentions it in his book Cross Dressing in the Lake District.

BlueBooby Wed 29-Jul-20 16:02:22

Can you send a Facebook message to the friend of friend and say you don't understand what they mean by gender identity. When they give the standard nonsensical definition, you can keep going. "Sorry I still don't understand. I don't identify as a gender. Or are you using gender as another word for sex?"

If messaging them isn't an option, then I'd either ignore the survey, or if there are any open text boxes I'd dedicate one to a rant on the difference between sex and gender, and the importance of biological sex.

SnuggyBuggy Wed 29-Jul-20 16:06:39

Sounds a bit niche, what sort of questions does it have?

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