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(12 Posts)
purpleboy Wed 10-Jun-20 08:39:39

Hi all,

I'm new to this area but have been reading a lot and and forming and shaping my ideas on GCF.
I have tried to do some more online research, but honestly I feel like I'm falling down a rabbit hole, there is so much information and short hand that I struggle to fully understand it all.

I was really hoping some of you could give me your views and ideas so I can understand a bit more.

So I fully understand the TWAW slogan and why it represents a danger to women's rights, but what I'm not understanding is who is campaigning to take our rights is it genuine trans people or it it activists? Is there a difference? And if it activists what are they gaining from this, is it just to appear woke and kind or is it something deeper?

Do you as women feel a trans woman who has gone through surgery can then access women's spaces? Or should they always have a 3rd space?

I want to be able to start talking to friends and family about this but I'm not sure I fully understand and would like to have all the answers to any questions that might get thrown at me.

Thanks all for reading smile

OP’s posts: |
DancelikeEmmaGoldman Wed 10-Jun-20 09:01:25

You could start with thus thread.

Break it down for me?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

purpleboy Wed 10-Jun-20 09:10:40

Wow this is brilliant thank you! Think it's going to take me a while to get through all that.
Appreciate your response.

OP’s posts: |
OhHolyJesus Wed 10-Jun-20 09:12:02

It's good to ask for views OP as some come on here expecting us to all think the same.

For me a TRA can be a trans person or not, if they are campaigning with TWAW or #NoDebate their gender identity is irrelevant to me, they are simply campaigning against women and want us to shut up. As trans men are generally quiet in the main thrust of the debate I see it as a Men's Rights Movement.

For me, a man who has had penile surgery is still a man, whether the surgery was by choice or to save his life after a freak accident. I also know synthetic hormones don't change your DNA so you can't change your sex by any means. Same for women/trans men. Others may disagree.

NonnyMouse1337 Wed 10-Jun-20 09:14:29

Take your time. Don't rush. That would be my biggest advice. There's a lot of information here. The political transgenderism movement touches on a vast number of areas. The erosion of women's rights has been going on for a number of years now.

J.K Rowling herself said it took about 3 years of reading and understanding. I would say it took me about 1 to 1.5 years of the same. I'm not saying this to put you off or discourage you, but to have a realistic idea that it takes time to genuinely read / watch / listen to information, understand it and form your opinions and conclusions. You don't need to be an expert and much of the gender critical material is very easy to comprehend and understand. Like any subject matter, it will initially feel confusing, but soon you will start to get a handle on the terms and viewpoints.

There are lots of very articulate posters here, and differences of opinions. Twitter is not the place for nuanced debate, although you can follow certain accounts and read the longer articles they post to etc.

Welcome aboard. smile

purpleboy Wed 10-Jun-20 09:24:52

Thanks both for your responses.
Your right about it being a long process I would say I'm really only a few months into it and I feel so ashamed it's taken me this long to recognize or understand the current situation.
When I first started reading about it on here I was thinking what are these women taking about! Self ID so any many can go into our private space of course no one could be that stupid to either A. Accept it or B. Allow it to happen. It's actually scared me to think people see this as reasonable. I certainly don't want to put trans people down I think they must struggle enough, I want to help them on they journey for acceptance, but it appears acceptance for them means taking over our women's only spaces, that just can't be ok?

OP’s posts: |
OhHolyJesus Wed 10-Jun-20 10:07:45

Nonny is right - take your time. It's very complex (and yet simple), it's hard to explain sometimes.

Maybe pick an area and explore that - one at a time - schools, rape crisis centres, prisons, toilets?

This board has so much that will help you, with different perspectives and well-made arguments as well as useful links, stories and witty comments.

Don't feel ashamed, I did too, but it doesn't achieve anything. You're here now.

I turned my back to have a baby and thought we had made such progress, only to wake up about 2 years ago to find out we were already losing our rights. I'll be forever grateful to the women who were on this from the beginning, who stood fast when people said they were crazy, it would never happen, who have held tight and waited patiently for more to join them.

We're here now.

Z0rr0 Wed 10-Jun-20 10:29:12

Someone who has a GRC under the law has to be recognised as their preferred gender so would be entitled to access women's spaces (as I understand it). I think in practice, so few people go down this route (in 2018, less than 5000 people since the Act came into force in 2004) that it's mainly the preserve of transsexuals who have gone to lengths to more closely resemble the people they feel themselves to be.
Self ID opens the gates to allow anyone to describe themselves as a woman some or all of the time, with no need to change themselves or the way they live in any way, but preventing women with concerns about finding a male in their space from speaking up.
I think a couple of years ago most women would have been perfectly happy to share a toilet with a trans woman because we want them to live in a way that makes them feel happy and comfortable and safe.
Concerns over Self ID and safeguarding are valid.
But there has been so much pushback from TRAs on this that it's forced us into a more intransigent position. Because how do we now say 'well these few natal males are ok, but the rest of you aren't' leading us into these arguments about 'well are you going to check people's genitals as they walk in the door?' So unfortunately the pushback from TRAs has made it more difficult for people with the GRC because you have to find a place to draw the line on admitting males and that place would appear to be none or all.

NonnyMouse1337 Wed 10-Jun-20 10:30:43

Yes, as OhHolyJesus says there's no need to feel ashamed. We've all had slightly similar paths with initially being supportive of the generic narrative around trans rights that is being promoted publicly. Most of us put very little thought into how that would actually play out in reality.

Remember, there hasn't been sufficient open debate and honest analysis for the general public, although it's slowly changing in recent months. And this has been deliberate. All the no platforming and calling women names and the hyperbole around how any questioning of the mechanisms and ideology underlying trans rights is somehow supportive of 'literal violence'. It's designed to keep people fearful of asking difficult questions.

Trans people are not a monolith either. Some disagree with how this discourse has been shaped and the way that trans activists are steamrolling over women's rights.

Gender extremists have gotten this far because everyone has wanted to 'be nice' and polite and not ask difficult questions for fear of 'offending' and 'upsetting' people. We see the same approach in many other types of issues as well.

Society can find a way to support those who are struggling without denying reality, obscuring truth and facts or trampling over another group's rights.

Thelnebriati Wed 10-Jun-20 12:16:04

Even with a gender recognition certificate, a person does not have the automatic right to access a women only space or service.
Unfortunately, organisations such as Stonewall have been misrepresenting the law, and convincing people that they do.

The fact is that women have the protected characteristic of sex, that sex does not change, and we have the right to single sex spaces in any place where you would expect safety, privacy or dignity, such as;

a toilet
a changing room
a domestic violence shelter
sports

Z0rr0 Wed 10-Jun-20 12:56:12

Thank you for the clarification.

purpleboy Wed 10-Jun-20 13:42:40

@Thelnebriati who has the final say on that, so if my 17yr old dd was in a changing room and a man came in, does she have the right to ask him to be removed or can the company still allow him in even if she objects?

OP’s posts: |

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