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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

New Stonewall boss in no platforming incident

25 replies

BovaryX · 24/05/2020 07:57

The Sunday Times is reporting that Alice Sullivan, an academic who was supposed to speak at an event relating to the upcoming national census was 'no platformed.' Her allegedly 'anti trans' opinions were deemed sufficiently heretical to cancel her participation in the event, which was to discuss the construction of the census.

^the new head of Stonewall, an LGBT charity that campaigns for “acceptance without exception”, allowed a top social scientist to be barred from a discussion of how Britain conducts its census.
Nancy Kelley was one of the leaders of a research group that agreed to have the scientist “no-platformed” in the latest row over academic freedom. Alice Sullivan, professor of sociology at University College London and director of one of the UK’s biggest social science projects, was due to speak at a seminar last month alongside officials from the Office for National Statistics (ONS), which is organising the 2021 census^

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BovaryX · 24/05/2020 07:57
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overnightangel · 24/05/2020 08:01

“Scientist Banned From Academic Discussion For Believing In Biological Science” would be a more appropriate headline

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BovaryX · 24/05/2020 08:09

The interesting thing is that if there is a concerted effort to exclude anyone with gender critical views from the team that are designing the National Census, what implications does that have? On its questions and its ability to elicit factual information?

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testing987654321 · 24/05/2020 08:23

Being picky here, but she appears to be a sociologist, a social scientist. You can't shorten that to scientist, changes the meaning completely.

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BovaryX · 24/05/2020 08:32

What is the purpose of a National Census? It is to derive factual information about the population. Will the 2021 census be designed in a way which elicits that information? Who will design it?

Sullivan had intended to discuss proposed ONS guidance that people should be allowed to self-identify as male or female in the 2021 census. Under the guidance, respondents would be able to answer according to what they felt themselves to be and not their birth sex. In December Sullivan organised a letter, signed by 80 social scientists and published in The Sunday Times, arguing that to let people choose how to answer will affect the accuracy of the census.Sullivan revealed her no-platforming experience in a paper published last week in the International Journal of Research Methodology. She writes that she was told the seminar was cancelled because inviting her was “too risky” and another speaker had threatened to pull out if she attended.“Many people do not recognise the scale of this culture of no-platforming or how it operates,” she said. “I hope that developing a better understanding of how this culture of silencing on gender issues works will help universities and research organisations to recognise what is going on and take a more robust approach to defending scientific prerogatives

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Kave · 24/05/2020 08:38

Except that the topic is the census. The information gained is essential for a lot of real time planning as well as of use to both professional & amateur historians. For many of those tasks, input from the Social Sciences & the Humanities is as important as that from statisticians. I don’t know enough about exactly who has what input into the Qs. To mess with the data for the benefit of less than 1% of the population is ludicrous. There could easily be an opt-out Q or an additional Q for people who do not believe in biological sex without rendering the exercise virtually useless by excluding it.

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Onebigfoot · 24/05/2020 08:41

So now not only will crime statistics be incorrect so will census results. Does nobody care that stonewall are using their massive influence to quash freedom of speech?

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BovaryX · 24/05/2020 08:44

Does nobody care that stonewall are using their massive influence to quash freedom of speech?

This is made possible because of the active collusion of myriad institutions. It is quite incredible.

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ripx1JadeFinch · 24/05/2020 09:06

Does anyone have a share token?

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Ameanstreakamilewide · 24/05/2020 09:18

Indeed. 🤨

New Stonewall boss in no platforming incident
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NoraBat · 24/05/2020 10:13

Hmmm, so potentially we could all self identify as men? Interesting...I can sense people having some fun with this and the 2021 census will just come back as the biggest load of bollocks ever since the Jedi religion.
On a serious note though if they go ahead with things like this the whole census is just a waste of time and money and they’d be better off not bothering.

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NonnyMouse1337 · 24/05/2020 10:20

The same issue has been taking place in Scotland.

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2019/09/24/losing-count-consultation-on-the-sex-question-in-the-2021-census/

Question development and stakeholder engagement
Some details of the early engagement process on the sex question are provided in a Freedom of Information response from the National Records of Scotland. This shows that in the formative question development phase, during which the Scottish Government established its preferred option, officials met only with LGBT stakeholders (Equality Network/Scottish Trans Alliance, Stonewall Scotland, LGBT Health). The FOI response indicates that no meetings were held with independent statisticians, census data users, or with other right-holders affected by a loss of data on sex prior to the introduction of the draft Bill.

More info here.

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/scotlands-2021-census-and-other-data/

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Imnobody4 · 24/05/2020 10:25

LBGT organisations seem to have become a shadow state, are there any strings they're not pulling. Shame on politicians.

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OhHolyJesus · 24/05/2020 10:30

Full Text if needed:

“The new head of Stonewall, an LGBT charity that campaigns for “acceptance without exception”, allowed a top social scientist to be barred from a discussion of how Britain conducts its census.

Nancy Kelley was one of the leaders of a research group that agreed to have the scientist “no-platformed” in the latest row over academic freedom.

Alice Sullivan, professor of sociology at University College London and director of one of the UK’s biggest social science projects, was due to speak at a seminar last month alongside officials from the Office for National Statistics (ONS), which is organising the 2021 census.

Sullivan leads the 1970 British Cohort Study, which follows 17,000 people born in one week 50 years ago. She was invited by the research body NatCen, which works closely with the ONS. Kelley is NatCen’s deputy chief executive and is to move to Stonewall later this year.

The event was cancelled after some NatCen members alleged that Sullivan held “anti-trans views”. Emails disclosed under information laws reveal fears “that including Sullivan as a panellist could be seen as NatCen endorsing anti-trans views, risking reputational damage and perhaps more importantly risking harm to staff and audience members”. Circulated among the six-strong leadership team, the emails say the NatCen LGBT group “suggested she not take part or that the event be cancelled”. It was scrapped days later.

Sullivan had intended to discuss proposed ONS guidance that people should be allowed to self-identify as male or female in the 2021 census. Under the guidance, respondents would be able to answer according to what they felt themselves to be and not their birth sex. In December Sullivan organised a letter, signed by 80 social scientists and published in The Sunday Times, arguing that to let people choose how to answer will affect the accuracy of the census.

Sullivan revealed her no-platforming experience in a paper published last week in the International Journal of Research Methodology. She writes that she was told the seminar was cancelled because inviting her was “too risky” and another speaker had threatened to pull out if she attended.

“Many people do not recognise the scale of this culture of no-platforming or how it operates,” she said. “I hope that developing a better understanding of how this culture of silencing on gender issues works will help universities and research organisations to recognise what is going on and take a more robust approach to defending scientific prerogatives.”

She added: “It is troubling that Nancy Kelley appears implicated in cancelling a research methods seminar rather than allowing an open discussion . . . No-platforming is a tactic that we used to associate only with hard-left sects and student politics. Trans activists have brought no-platforming and silencing of mainstream views into organisations that should know better. It is far more widespread than people realise. The academics affected come from a range of disciplines, yet they are nearly always women.”

NatCen said: “The National Centre for Social Research is committed to independence and impartiality. Given the current lobbying on census sex and gender questions, and the need for us to retain our actual and perceived independence given we have been testing different approaches with customers in this area, we did not feel it appropriate for NatCen to hold a seminar at this time. Our staff have a wide range of differing views on issues including in this area. We encourage them to express these openly and we value diversity. There is certainly no staff lobby or policy to no-platform academics or anyone else at NatCen and we have given that reassurance to Professor Alice Sullivan.”

Stonewall and Nancy Kelley declined to comment.”

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NotBadConsidering · 24/05/2020 10:38
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GCGayDad · 24/05/2020 10:39

I fucking hate Stonewall and the rest of them. What an absolutely vile organisation they have become. (And I don’t normally swear online.)

In any case, though, even if the census were to be worded to capture biological sex accurately, we can be sure that the TRAs will get lots of their followers to mess up the responses to render the data meaningless.

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nauticant · 24/05/2020 10:49

There is confusion over what is being proposed for the 2021 Census. Here's the ONS guidance:

www.ons.gov.uk/census/censustransformationprogramme/questiondevelopment/genderidentity/guidanceforquestionsonsexgenderidentityandsexualorientationforthe2019censusrehearsalforthe2021census#guidance-for-the-gender-identity-question-for-the-2019-rehearsal

It is misleadingly stated that the "gender identity" question is optional:

Proposed question on gender for the 2019 Rehearsal

Question: Is your gender the same as the sex you were registered at birth?

Note: This question is voluntary

Response options: Yes; No, write in gender

because a question about sex will continue to be present. However, the question about sex can be answered by someone giving their "gender identity" instead of their sex:

The sex question on the census will be mandatory, so will need to be answered by all. However, for those whose gender is different from their sex registered at birth, who may find the question difficult to answer, the answer they provide does not need to be the same as their birth certificate.

It is intended that people can opt to provide no information about their sex and instead to give two answers of their "gender identity".

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Bananabixfloof · 24/05/2020 10:57

In any case, though, even if the census were to be worded to capture biological sex accurately, we can be sure that the TRAs will get lots
of their followers to mess up the responses to render the data meaningless
Pretty sure the women of fwr can do exactly the same.
Let's render the whole thing meaningless.
I haven't seen the questions yet but I have faith we can do this.
I expect we women fill out the census anyway, so let's make everyone in our household non binary or queer romantic or something.

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nauticant · 24/05/2020 11:00

Trans race or even better trans age seems to be the best way of showing up what a nonsense this is. Let's have households of people all identifying as under-10s.

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GCGayDad · 24/05/2020 11:07

I expect we women fill out the census anyway, so let's make everyone in our household non binary or queer romantic or something.

Problem is with doing that is that the TRAs, Stinewall etc. Would use the findings to show that the “gender-diverse” community is much bigger than even they had realised!

It might be more effective to mark everyone in your household as female and lesbian - even male children and partners! Wink

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Bananabixfloof · 24/05/2020 11:43

It might be more effective to mark everyone in your household as female and lesbian - even male children and partners
That's fine with me, I will even add my pets as female lesbians.
No skin off my nose to do it and for once some women might even benefit.

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Bananabixfloof · 24/05/2020 11:46

Trans race or even better trans age seems to be the best way of showing up what a nonsense this is. Let's have households of people all identifying as under-10s
Ok so everyone in every household will be
Black, lesbian, female by actual sex, under 10 and let's add some disability too, not to mock disabled people but to raise benefits for them.

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Manderleyagain · 24/05/2020 13:15

According to this thread the natcen emailed all their staff to say they should not allowed to sign Prof sullivan's letter (which was signed by 80 experts) but if they did, they were not allowed to give their professional title, as the natcen didn't want to be associated with the view that the census should collect clear data on the sex of the population,separate from subjective identity. So natcen not being entirely truthful in what they said to the Times.

Thanks for the article transcript above.

twitter.com/johnarmstrong5/status/1264487744677588992

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Dances · 25/05/2020 11:12

Nancy Keeley was deputy CEO of @NatCen?

Fuck sake, this shit gets worse

mobile.twitter.com/johnarmstrong5/status/1264487783596462080

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nettie434 · 25/05/2020 11:43

Thanks for the article OhHolyJesus NotBadConsidering.

I am really surprised that Natcen has behaved like this. ONS (and Natcen) spend a lot of time testing questions to make sure people understand them. No platforming people (especially those who have expertise in this area) will not help this process.

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