A Blow to free speech in NewZeaand

[Illyria47]

speakupforwomen.nz/womens-rights-campaign-censored/?fbclid=IwAR0TPQ50MsL9QsW7-f-nH19U3o0EmE1yRzI6Q6J1HJSHxC1PoBw91UFNJqU

Just saw this, did post about it on the link to the meeting in Auckland but felt it needed a wider audience.
Evidently women speaking about women on a matter that concerns women is no longer allowed in New Zealand!

[Yeahnahyeah]

Oh ffs. I hope this gets covered by the press, with a comments section, but I bet it doesn't. I fear we kiwis are doing this trans ideology worse than any other country, which is saying something.

[Pixiedust2017]

Hmm. You say that but transgender care in NZ is actually rather poor. Whilst I personally dont agree it should be paid for by the taxpayer, the waiting lists are horrendous for surgery. I know quite a few people who are really struggling to get the help they need at all with doctors or counsellors. The waiting list in my region to see the specialists alone is over 18 months long, let alone be considered for surgery. All of that is tangent to OPs original point however. All women should be listened to and have a voice.

[OtepotiLilliane42]

Pixiedust2017 I agree with you that transgender care in NZ is poor, which is why I applaud the government's moves to allocate more money for surgery, and I think that every person struggling with gender identity issues should be able to see a counsellor if at all possible.

However, my concern about Self ID has nothing to do with the transgender community per se, but with the fact that it was introduced without due diligence as to its possible effects on women's rights to sex-segregated spaces such as toilets, changing rooms, hostels, refuges etc.

As I said on this thread Professor Rosa Freeedman & Barrister Julian Norman to speak in Auckland on Self ID 26 February all we have wanted from the Government is a straight answer to these questions: Will this self-identification provision for gender identity override sex-based protections for women and girls? Will the seeming conflation of biological sex and gender identity render meaningless the current protections in the Human Rights Act 1993 against sex-based discrimination and provisions for sex-segregated facilities and services?

And if the answer to those questions is yes and yes, then it is up to to
the government, not us, to give good reasons as to why why sexual predators will not be able to take advantage of Self ID to say that they have a legal right to enter, and remain, in formerly sex-segregated spaces.

Why these perfectly reasonable questions have been met with vitriol I don't know, since it would be in everyone's interests for our lawmakers to enact legislation that would help transgender people to live the life they want, and ensure at the same time that women don't lose hard won rights to safe spaces.

[Illyria47]

Having concerns about a piece of legislation is a quite separate issue to the needs of the trans gender community. No one asking for more consultation has any animus towards them even if the trans activists and some female MPs would have it otherwise.
I do not have an irrational fear (phobia) of trans gender persons. I do have a rational fear that women and girls rights could be superseded if the self ID proposal gets passed. All the Government has to do is to assure the women of New Zealand that this will not be the case, that we remain protected under the Human Rights Act 1993. Speak Up for Women has proposed a simple amendment to the BDM and R Act which would ensure the status quo for women.
I noted the Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern did speak about extra funding being needed for surgery a couple of days ago.
What worries me is the creeping censorship which is certainly prevalent in the UK around women being able to speak out on this issue obviously taking place here in NZ. I thought we were a more robust nation than that.

[BernardBlacksWineIcelolly]

The constant and deliberate conflation of having concerns about the infringement of women's rights with rampant transphobia is bloody annoying.

yes, this is a blow to freedom of speech in NZ

[fidgetspinner555]

Can I just point out that our fav Doc is currently in NZ.

[Illyria47]

Yes, noted that. My sister and I are going to write to the Prime Minister with our concerns re the prevailing atmosphere around the Self-ID proposal which has allowed the craven capitulation of the Phantom Billsticker company to an obvious disinformation campaign by a number of people with regard to the motive behind the poster.
We will be writing to Jamey Holloway of Phantom Billstickers too you may be rest assured.

[Iused2BanOptimist]

Indeed Pixie and Fidget
I should be concerned. Very concerned.
I was aware there are plenty of job opportunities for Drs interested in trans care.
Beware.

[Oxytocindeficient]

I’m not surprised, Phantom Bill Stickers did this to someone else whose name escapes me. They shouldn’t have a monopoly of the industry. Nothing surprises me about my home country, it’s one of the most sexist places on Earth and alarmingly a lot of people think it’s super progressive. It really really isn’t.

[Trousering]

This Jamey seems to be calling women interested in women's rights dogs.

Describe posters that draw attention to this issue as dog whistles then the audiences the posters are whistling at are dogs according to Jamey.

Can Jamey explain why he has decided to publicly announce his decision that women are dogs of they have an interest in their own rights?

Is his company prone to insullting women in this way or is this a one off?

[OtepotiLilliane42]

Just come across this article from Radio NZ featuring Georgina Blackmore (SpeakupforWomen)and a Jack Byrne, whom I don't know. I think the author is trying to give a fair and balanced account of the issues from both sides of the debate, but the use of the word 'cisgender' does grate. However we have nothing to fear according to the Professor below:

Feminist academic and University of Canterbury School of Law Professor Elisabeth McDonald says there are very few laws where we make differentiations on the basis of sex. Where we do - like under the Human Rights Act, which makes exemptions for single sex prisons, schools and sports teams - we already accommodate people who have changed the sex marker on their birth certificate through the Family Court. McDonald doesn't believe that a law change will erode the protections these spaces grant women. "I really don't think we will notice a difference. The world will not stop. Women will not be less safe.

www.radionz.co.nz/news/in-depth/381878/sex-self-identification-debate-a-cesspool-of-harmful-stereotypes

I'm interested to know what others think about this article. I have my thoughts on "Jess" but will only say that their birth certificate should not be altered.

[Oxytocindeficient]

It’s not a particularly balanced article, it’s attempting to appear that way by having one GC women involved, but each point raised by those concerned about self-ID is responded to at length, dismissing any concern as unfounded. I didn’t appreciate the emotional manipulation involved in the article.

This is at odds with the process for changing a New Zealand licence or passport,

Yes, as it should be. Comparing changing a birth certificate, which is supposed to be an official documentation of your birth that is unchangeable, with a licence or passport, is utterly stupid.

[thatdamnwoman]

Oxytocindeficient, really glad to hear a Kiwi acknowledging that. As a lesbian travelling around New Zealand I was initially charmed by the apparently progressive attitude of most of the people we met but the sexism and racism is all there beneath the surface still. It all began to feel very weird. The superficial 'look how cool we are' surface and the domestic violence, the expectation that women should be married by 30, the clearly dominant men, the religious influence still very prominent...

[CatandtheFiddle]

However, my concern about Self ID has nothing to do with the transgender community per se, but with the fact that it was introduced without due diligence as to its possible effects on women's rights to sex-segregated spaces such as toilets, changing rooms, hostels, refuges etc

Maybe the push for self-ID in NZ is precisely to cut the burden of counselling and surgery on the public medical purse? If so, cynical and inhuman to the extreme.

People with genuine body dysphoria don't get the treatment they need, and women are put at risk of any man with a problem with women claiming trans status to get privileged access to women's safe spaces.

Oh well, I suppose the same thing could happen to people with anorexia - we'd save on budgets and food ...

[OtepotiLilliane42]

You are right Oxytocindeficient about the emotional manipulation in the article, but I suppose I was trying to believe Radio NZ still believed in balanced journalism. Though after listening to Katherine Ryan give a free pass in an interview to the authors of the Transgender Health report (see link below) and John Campbell fawn over Laurel Hubbard after they had won 2 silver medals in the Commonwealth Games I gave up on National Radio.
I do struggle to try and understand what it must be like to feel dreadfully at odds with your own body, and have tried to read as many personal stories as I can find (like the ones described in the RNZ article) to gain some insight. But the issue for me, first and foremost, is one of keeping the current rights of women and girls to have their own spaces, free of harassment and intimidation by men. If the government ensures that these rights remain protected fine, but I still have concerns about the monitoring of who applies for Self ID and what follow ups there will be. I would hope that these procedural issues would be ironed out in the Select Committee.

What has upset me, and many others I imagine, is the utter contempt shown by some MPs towards ordinary citizens who are merely exercising their democratic rights in raising concerns about a piece of government legislation. Furthermore, the MPs complicity in misrepresenting those concerns as prejudice and hate towards the transgender community is deeply disquieting.

researchcommons.waikato.ac.nz/bitstream/handle/10289/12160/Guidelines%20for%20Gender%20Affirming%20Health%20low%20res.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y

[Oxytocindeficient]

the MPs complicity in misrepresenting those concerns as prejudice and hate towards the transgender community is deeply disquieting.

Yes it is. As an ex Green voter I am pretty disturbed by what NZ Green, and Labour MP’s have said in response to women’s concerns.

The thing everyone needs to remember about NZ is it has the highest rate of DV in the developed world. It has been issued several UN warnings over its institutional racism, pointing out that NZ has not improved from earlier warnings. NZ is not any closer to including Te Reo Māori in its curriculum, the mere suggestion by anyone is met with fierce opposition in NZ & despite the public fawning over Jacinda, she is also not remotely interested in discussing or implementing that necessary change. NZ land wars are also not any closer to being included on the curriculum. I’m mixed race Māori of white appearance, quite prominent features, and I could give many many examples of my family who are all dark, being treated differently and ‘less than’ me, and I could talk about how I’ve been treated once people found out I was Māori too. The country is deeply racist, deeply deeply sexist and more besides. LGBT have a stronger influence than feminists ever will, because that community includes white men. That’s the reality. I actually spoke to someone at NZ Rugby recently about their inclusion of players who have beaten women. The woman I spoke to was great, but she knows that the cultural change it would take to shift towards a zero tolerance approach to violent men, and she and I both know it won’t happen anytime soon. The country is broken, and no amount of pretty scenery, fantastic movies or Rugby trophies, will alter that cold hard reality.

[Pixiedust2017]

If anyone has a template letter or a petition for the government on self id issues i would happily sign it and pass it on to my kiwi friends.
Im on my phone so cant tag people (because im too lazy to work it out) but to whomever mentioned her, dont get me started on the weightlifter...
I have only been in NZ a few years but I have already seen a MASSIVE increase in the number of those transitioning.
This is an issue that I worry about particularly as I have a little girl. It saddens me deeply that the rights her ancestors fought so hard for could be made redundant so easily and that she could be at risk as a result.

[OtepotiLilliane42]

Pixiedust2017 I suggest you use the email form provided on the speakupforwomen website as an easy way to let your MP know what the objections are to the introduction of Self ID without a proper analysis of its possible effects on women's rights.

speakupforwomen.nz/email-your-mp/

[Iused2BanOptimist]

Apparently he's at Napier Art festival.
Do remind him TW remain men if you happen to see him.

twitter.com/flyinglawyer73/status/1095604099586945024?s=20

[Iused2BanOptimist]

Napier Art Deco festival *

[Illyria47]

Otepoti and I have e-mailed the Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern re the censoring of free speech over the self ID issue. We asked her to look at the press release from SUFW over the pulling of their posters.
We pointed out to the PM that discussion on this issue has been hampered by the egregious hostile comments from certain Government MPs towards anyone asking legitimate questions.
We have also e-mailed Jamey Holloway from Phantom Billstickers expressing our displeasure at his action in taking down the posters on the words of a handful of mischief makers. We asked him what he was afraid of. We await his reply with interest.

[Oxytocindeficient]

I wouldn’t hold your breathe on Jacinda replying, she’s head of the woke brigade and cares more about kindness than protections for women

[Yeahnahyeah]

The other kiwi woman it happened to was Renee Gerlich
i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/106356864/free-speech-battle-brews-between-feminist-and-transactivist-groups

[MargueritaPink]

In my view this just reinforces that the handwringing about the wrong sort of allies is misplaced. Those who seek to ban freedom of speech and freedom of association have the potential to do far more harm to society as a whole than those campaigning on single issues such as anti- abortion.

[Oxytocindeficient]

In my view this just reinforces that the handwringing about the wrong sort of allies is misplaced. Those who seek to ban freedom of speech and freedom of association have the potential to do far more harm to society as a whole than those campaigning on single issues such as anti- abortion.

Absolutely, this ^