Time magazine article - trans men 'confirm' sexism alive and well

[HereBeFuckery]

time.com/transgender-men-sexism/

I just read this via Facebook. It's frankly jaw dropping. Trans men mansplaining sexism ("you wimmin, you weren't just whinging, I have now experienced it, and as a man can confirm it is true") and dismissing women as feeble indecisive creatures.

Yeah. Thanks for that betrayal. Good thing you're now safely transitioned, and no longer have to be confused by yoghurt and pasta sauce. Phew. Lucky escape.

I can't even. Just. Fuck.

[DancingLedge]

They've lived as women, but once admitted to the male club, not a word about challenging sexism towards women?
I can't believe they weren't asked about that.

[HereBeFuckery]

Yup. The tone is 'relieved not to be one of those rubbish women'. It's horrifying. No wonder the patriarchy is winning.
And shame on Time for publishing this fuckwittery.

[SomeDyke]

I don';t quite see what the issue is with it, from a quick skim -- YES, they all seem to admit that they were treated better professionally once they transitioned. The 'more decisive' stuff about T, I'd possibly stick that under the what they think they're supposed to feel once they're 'a real man'. And let's face it, they're not exactly going to feel sympathy with the rest of us left-behind females as regards sexism, because that would clash with their desperate need to be accepted as a man.

What I take from it is fear -- because they either don't have a phalloplasty, or if they do know they can't fully pass once things get intimate. Hence the security they get from being able to walk the streets and professionally and 'pass' is forever waiting to be undermined if they want intimate relationships. Plus they realise they weren't socialized as males, hence don't know the unwritten rules of masculinity, and how to pass as men amongst men.

In many ways, even if they realise that they have a different perspective, and realise how different things are for chaps, they aren't free to say so without letting the cat out of the bag and explaining how they know. It's frankly internalised misogyny, part of why they so desperately wanted to escape femaleness in the first place. And whilst projecting it outwards onto females, they can try to not focus it back on themselves, because they so desperately want to believe that it not only no longer applies (because they are men), but it never properly did (because they were always men).

O, I know why the sense of betrayal is so hard to take, but whatever advantage they have gained is (almost always) at a hell of a cost, and as long as they cannot be openly a transman, there is always going to be the fear of being discovered and uncovered and 'sent back' to the position of lowly female they were so desperate to escape from.

[CharlieParley]

All that notwithstanding, I found this an interesting article. Obviously these transmen knew sexism existed having experienced it, but it's still striking to have them confirm it in such a blatant way as being considered more competetent than their past female selves even when working for the same employer

Thanks for the link HereBeFuckery

[dorade]

I can't fathom why this has come as a surprise to them - surely most women know this? And, frankly, if they've always really been men, they would have known anyway.

[CharlieParley]

Feel I should add that I think this is an excellent article. It's exploring the issue of transmen sensitively, without sensationalising its subjects or proselytising its audience.

Could there be an exploration of whether they should be challenging gender stereotypes and sexism? I'd wish there to be, but frankly by transitioning these transmen have essentially embraced gender stereotypes. Maybe they fight sexism in their own way, maybe they don't. Only severe gender dysphoria would have led them to this point and living their lives this way must be an immense relief mentally. And I don't blame them for that, either.

[HereBeFuckery]

Some my issue with it is really the presentation I guess. It's 'Men are confirming that sexism is real'. Yeah, thanks for that men, WE KNOW, WE LIVE WITH IT. But your penis/maleness being there while you experience it makes it so much more real. Before you 'confirmed' it, we confused Little women weren't sure, so thanks for the reassurance that it wasn't another example of our silly girly brains being overwhelmed.

[HereBeFuckery]

Charlie they knew, when they were women, but it's only worth reporting that they now 'confirm' it, since now their opinions are male opinions. Before, it was, what, just guessing?

Sensitive? That's one word.

[SomeDyke]

"but it's still striking to have them confirm it in such a blatant way as being considered more competent than their past female selves even when working for the same employer"

I've come across that before from an account by someone who others thought was their own brother -- how much better they were than their sister.

For these transmen, they may pass at work, they may pass in the street, they may have found a partner (a wife and a marriage), but they still won't produce sperm, they cannot be a 'real' father, and they will, unless they are one of the rare transmen who can also be out, be in constant fear of having their 'real' femaleness exposed. It must be a terrific mental strain, frankly. And not one that most transwomen seem to worry about in the same way, which tells you about sexism all over again!

[Mogleflop]

Well if you want to be an arse, you could say they're not men, they're transmen, so not mansplaining? Transplaining?

What I find baffling is that they didn't apparently know this before living as men. Did they honestly not know how many men treat women like dirt?

I'd like to see more articles talking on behalf of all men, and more positions of power grabbed by women who've transitioned into being men. I think we'd see some male TERFs beginning to wake up then - at the moment the only social losers are women.

[SomeDyke]

"Well if you want to be an arse, you could say they're not men.."
Or if you prefer fact-based reality...........
Behaving like a sexist arsehole won't make them men either, even if might make them 'fit-in' a bit better amongst the menz.

And you can't just play reversey with this one -- sexism won't let you. Transmen aren't the same issue for men that transwomen are for women.

[OlennasWimple]

I read an interesting Reddit thread (I know, I know...) where transmen and transwomen were comparing their professional experiences pre and after transition, and most did indeed confirm that as transwomen they were patronised and assumed to be incompetent at complex tasks whilst transmen found that they were suddenly listened to in meetings etc.

Obviously this is just anecdata, but still interesting

[HereBeFuckery]

Some that's a good point. "Passing" seems to be important, according to the article, so perhaps the blatant dislike and disdain for women expressed by the trans men was just part of that process. How unutterably depressing.

[SomeDyke]

Historically, many lesbians lived and passed as men because then they could marry women, and pursue the careers they desired (surgeons, jazz musicians to name a few). That must have been stressful, but potentially offered a private space where your nearest and dearest knew. But this present incarnation, it's not just out there finding out, it's maintaining the belief within yourself as well, that you have become or always were a man. Which would seem to make it more stressful. Anyway, things taken in historical context are certainly more complicated than the 'innate gender' lot would have us believe.

[CharlieParley]

HereBe get you now. Guess I was too focused on the fact that these are transsexuals (if by transsexuals we define those with GD who transition full time socially and medically, whether or not they have that final bottom surgery). As we're all only too aware, the biggest problem we currently have re self-id isn't the tiny number of transsexuals but the huge number of non-med, non-op AGP men. When I read about transsexuals, I don't really think about the latter. But I do understand what you were saying re sexism now.

[ILookedintheWater]

I don't think we read the same article OP.
I see an article about the unique perspective of those who have experienced life as a woman but now have access to men's 'sotto voce' behaviour towards women.