Disappointed with Alison Saunders comments

[IthinkImislaid10years]

Feeling frustrated with the DPPs comments on the recent high profile collapse of several rape trials.

I wish that when talking about the criminal justice process there was always a clear distinction between a reasonable chance of a successful prosecution and what actually happened. So certain actions, lack of actions might mean it's difficult to prove rape, not that they mean rape didn't happen.

So that a woman didn't say "no" or "walk away" perhaps gives the grounds for a man to say he had reasonable belief, not that it actually means he had reasonable belief.

This feels so basic. The comments or reporting of the comments is disappointing.

I'm also disappointed that she used the phrase wanting to "shout rape".

Also have I missed all the evidence that proved these men were innocent. Cuddling in bed doesn't mean someone can't be raped. I get the difficulty of a successful prosecution but it feels like we're moving backwards in terms of understanding how sexual violence and abuse can happen.

I think a massive resource issue with police investigations has been highlighted and she's throwing out progress made and confusing the issue.

[Ereshkigal]

It's an awful assumption to make. It's a rape myth. When I was raped I had had consensual sex with him the night before and I borrowed his shirt afterwards as I had to go to work and only had a vest top on. I was in shock I think. I gradually processed what had happened that day and the coming days.

The second time was when my abusive boyfriend decided to recreate that first experience as I had told him about it and I think he was jealous of my rapist. We probably did cuddle afterwards. It doesn't mean he didn't rape me.

[FlorenceLyons]

I'm sorry about your experiences, Erishkegal.

I feel the same way about how this issue is being reported. The 'cuddling in bed' story I thought was particularly damaging. There may be situations in which those photos might suggest previous evidence was flawed (if the prosecution case had suggested the victim didn't know the accused, for example), but that didn't seem to be the position here. Instead, what is implied is that if you've cuddled someone you can't possibly also have been raped by them.

[IthinkImislaid10years]

Instead, what is implied is that if you've cuddled someone you can't possibly also have been raped by them.
Yes, contradicting the story would be a valid issue - rather than the fact of cuddling in bed.

Ereshkigal sorry for your experiences. I'm glad you understand your reactions do not take away from the truth of what happened to you.

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

The second time was when my abusive boyfriend decided to recreate that first experience as I had told him about it and I think he was jealous of my rapist. We probably did cuddle afterwards. It doesn't mean he didn't rape me.

Oh good god...ehat the fuck is wrong with some men

[CarefullyDrawnMap]

I'm disappointed with her comments too. Really, it confirms what we should know by now - it will be the fault of the woman one way or another: what she's said or not said, what she's wearing or not wearing, what she's had to drink, where she was at the time, what she looks like, whether she's ever in her life had sex before, just having the damn bloody cheek to be a flaming ruddy woman really.

It's dispiriting.

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

But yes I completely agree with you OP

Its seems to be going backwards

[IthinkImislaid10years]

Her lead at the CPS has felt encouraging. I don't understand how/why she handed the media such awful lines.

[CarefullyDrawnMap]

It is odd and worrying, because obviously they will have considered the interview and what to say in it very carefully, involved their press office, sorted out lines to take etc. All of that, all the things that are supposed to have been learnt and improved upon, and still we get this.

[Ereshkigal]

Thanks everyone. You'll be astounded to learn I chose not to report either.

[EamonnWright]

I don't know how her time in the job can be seen as encouraging. Conviction rates are still horrifically low and it's almost everyday a case collapses through withholding evidence, incompetence or shit like this...

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/man-falsely-accused-of-sexually-assault-on-actress-wants-apology-from-cps-over-bemusing-case-a6877036.html

[IthinkImislaid10years]

Yes CarefullyDrawnMap. She is clearly under pressure to take this line. Doesn't bode well for future prosecutions, which as pp pointed out, haven't been successfully turned around as it is.

I guess maybe I was wrong to think her time was encouraging, but I thought she was saying the right things about victim blaming and rape myths. It's a huge cultural change needed - and perhaps a radically different approach. But at least if the DPP is saying the right things it's a start.

Yes, the withheld evidence is disastrous - but how does it compare to capacity to deal with the personal technology in relation to other crimes. Or maybe even the police do struggle with the intricacies of sexual violence and personal emails/etc. Couldn't that be dealt with without a backwards interview like it appears she gave.

Yep, dispiriting.

Ereshkigal, not surprised at all. I'm amazed anyone reports.

[Totallymyownperson]

I think she was trying to say it's difficult for the cps to prosecute cases where the woman hasn't explicitly said no or stop because one element of proving rape in law is the prosecution must prove beyond reasonable doubt that the accused did not have reasonable or honest belief the woman did not consent. This is the law that she other prosecutors have to work within. Maybe it's time we looked at getting rid of it as it plays to the rape myths many people and future jurors hold.

[IthinkImislaid10years]

Im not sure how we change the basis of the prosecution and still have fair trials. I think challenging rape myths - training judiciary, lawyers, informing juries etc was at least partly the way to go. Cultural changes are often slow. I see no reason to throw that away because of recent cases.

Of course if every woman who was raped shouted "no" it'd be easier for the CPS to challenge reasonable belief. But what a damaging statement. How inconvenient that women in traumatic situations do not follow the perfect rape victim script.
Making a statement about saying no does terrible damage to challenging rape myths.

[QuentinSummers]

Oh it's such a load of crap.
AS IF the jury are going to believe a woman saying "I asked him to Stop" over a man saying "she never made a sound".

Also on what planet is silence equal to consent.

[QuentinSummers]

totally I think the reasonable belief clause needs to go too. It places the man's perceptions of events above everything else from the start. And it actively works against the "capacity" clause.

[Totallymyownperson]

The reasonable and honest belief of consent completely makes the law that says people who are intoxicated have no capacity to consent useless because the defence can just say yeh well she didn't consent but he didn't know that because in her drunken state she might have put her arms round him or kissed him. I think people by now do know that intoxicated people cannot consent to sex but this element of the law is leaving prosecutors no choice but to drop a lot cases as jurors will be instructed by the judge that the prosecution have to prove the defendant knew it was rape, its almost unlike any other crime where ignorance of the law is no defence.