On Good Morning Britain: Fair Play for Women v India Willoughby

[EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans]

www.itv.com/goodmorningbritain/news/transgender-people-could-be-able-to-swap-prisons

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

I started watching but for bored once India started speaking and trotting out the suicide stats - it was really good to see a representative from Fair play for Women on, and I think the presenters totally got what she was saying.

It seemed to get a bit shouty towards the end though?

[EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans]

India & Piers both talked over the women. Nic was great though, she got a lot of important points across.

India talked about trans as a medical condition, used the word transsexual, was disparaging about people who swing between genders - not going to be at all popular!

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

not going to be at all popular

I noticed that at the start that she didn't seem to be quite singing from the TRA song sheet. While I disagree with India on many counts, it is good to see that there is at least a little bit of free thought and dissent allowed in the trans community

[DJBaggySmalls]

4.40 - 4.48
India claims that in womens prisons there must be lots of ''tough, predatory, sexually active women in there who harass other women''

Are there any prison officers who can comment on that?

[WelshMoth]

DJBaggy yes, that raised a few question marks with me too. Was she referring to butch lesbians? and trying to assume male dominant behaviour on them?

Also, they make a strong distinction between sex and gender, but not one mention to autogynephelia which is prevalent in many Transwomen. So there a very definite fetishist element to this which is very rarely mentioned. Why is that?

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

So there a very definite fetishist element to this which is very rarely mentioned. Why is that

Is guess Trans identified people don't because it undermines their cause. Id guess other people don't either because they aren't aware (outside of the bubble.this is still a really niche thing), or because trans people are presented as an oppressed minority, to suggest some may be doing it as a sexual fetish would be deemed way over the line into transphobic.

[Rachel40s]

Hi all,
Just watched the article all the way through and I agree with a lot of the points made on both sides. I'm MtF trans and I've fully transitioned (medically) going through the strict procedures required by the WPATH standards of care. I live perfectly well and successfully in my acquired gender. I'll try to answer some of the points above and offer my two-penneth worth:
I thought that Nicola was excellent - good, balanced arguments. She's obviously tolerant and understanding and accepts that trans women who have fully transitioned and changed their birth certificates "are female" (01:28).
Piers made an excellent point, which I think addresses a lot of the issues. "You don't want to discriminate against people who are genuinely transgender" (03:16). That's the point - genuinely transgender! In my opinion, the "trans umbrella" has been cast too wide. Everyone from chromosomally-intersex people to fetishistic cross-dressers to male sex offenders wanting access to women are now classed as "transgender" and there's really absolutely nothing in common. We need to distinguish "fashion choices and fetishes" from "medical conditions". WelshMoth quite rightly mentioned "autogynephelia which is prevalent in many Transwomen". That's because the definition of trans has gone so broad. Any hairy-arsed bloke who puts on a dress is considered "trans" - when in fact it's at best a fashion choice and at worst a fetish. That's a world apart from those of us who undergo years of psychiatry before undertaking professional, medical treatment under the care of qualified NHS (or Private) doctors. WelshMoth is spot on with "a very definite fetishist element to this which is very rarely mentioned". I think that's because those of us with a medically-diagnosed condition really hate this so much that we keep our heads down in order to not be "guilty by association". I think that's why there's not much of a balancing view coming from transsexual people. (Personally, I think it's time we re-claimed that word to mean those with a medical condition, as opposed to the nightmareish "weekend women" who are blokes playing dress-up.) ItsAllGoingToBeFine makes a good point about "free thought and dissent allowed in the trans community", but a lot of us have nothing to do with the trans community. As a transsexual woman, I don't want anything to do with blokes playing dress-up in the trans community. It's no community of mine, I can assure you. They're a million miles from me and I don't want to even be near them. While I do believe that anyone has the democratic right to dress and conduct themselves peacefully as they wish, it needs to be recognised that fetishes and fashion choices are just that! You don't get "rights" based upon your fashion choices! You don't get to go into segregated spaces based on the clothes you wear and a self-declaration! If someone is making the (frankly) extraordinary claim that they are somehow not the sex their body appeared to be at birth, that must surely be put to scientific and medical scrutiny and tested to the best of modern medical thinking before allowing any legal change. That's basically the law as it is now (regarding Gender Recognition) and I'll fight to keep it that way.
I think (and really hope) that more transsexuals speak out against this bonkers proposal. I certainly will be doing what I can. There are those of us who are just as opposed to the RTA (Radical Trans Activists - I just made that up) as any other woman!
My views would not be popular with the RTA, but since I have little to do with them, it's not an issue - YET!
Anyway - keep safe, everyone.
R

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

Rachel thanks for taking the time to respond - that was a really good post! I apologise for lumping you in with the "trans community" I'll try Ann be more careful about that in future.

And I love the acronym RTA (especially as it also means road traffic accident which is what this is all turning into)

Take care

[Terrylene]

Rachel, that was a really good post and informative.

Hope you keep posting.

[Rachel40s]

ItsAllGoingToBeFine
Thanks!
I did consider "Radically Active Trans" (RATs) but thought that was a bit off. Also thought of "Trans With AcTivism" (TWATs) but rejected that, too. "Gender Inconsistent Trans" (GITs) didn't make the grade, either. "Persistent Radically Active Trans" (PRATs) - no.

Sorry. I'll get my coat..............

[ferntwist]

Rachel

[ferntwist]

Best thing I've read all day

[RaininSummer]

Excellent post Rachel. Thank you.

[OlennasWimple]

Rachel

Good to see Fair Play getting invited to comment in the MSM

Good to see transwomen who don't toe the TRA line getting air time.

I think Jonathan Willoughby transitioned into the sort of person who reads the SheMail section and nods along with everything written. Apart from the comments about leg hair being dirty and not understanding Jenni Murray's points about her lived experience as a woman being different from India's experiences, I think many of us on here would share quite a few opinions with India regarding TRAs

[WelshMoth]

Rachel thank you for posting and welcome to the board. Your post is amazing and it brings such a dose of reality to the table. This whole debate must be a true nightmare for you and others who simply want to get with life. I truly hope that you're not lumped in with these vocal TA's.

You're acronyms have made me grin although I'd also considered RaTs....

I've truly had my eyes opened on this board. I hope you stick around.

[BigDeskBob]

To be honest, I have a problem with the term "genuine transwoman". Just because a man has had surgery and/or has their documents changed, it doesn't follow that they aren't a threat to women. Similarly, 'a non genuine transwomen' may pass better and cause no trouble to women.

It makes me sad than any man can change their birth certificate to female. Female isn't an identity that can be opted in and out of, its biology that a man can never have. Being able to buy a female birth certificate demonstrates how little society thinks of women and girls.

[SummatFishyEre]

Being able to buy a female birth certificate demonstrates how little society thinks of women and girls.

You are aware it goes the other way too right?

[BigDeskBob]

Does it? Where are the transman taking up 'male officer' jobs in councils and leading social media campaigns to get into male changing rooms and prisons?

[Datun]

Rachel40s

Interesting post. And I must say, it’s something of relief to have a bit of joking about the whole issue.

We have a couple of transwomen post on here, who think very much the same as you (although some don’t).

I certainly don’t blame transwomen with gender dysphoria from trying to distance themselves from the fetishist misogynists.

I hope you know, that this is not about individuals. It never has been. In the same way that male violence it’s not about individual men (namalt).

Having said that, I too disagree with the fact that one can legally become a woman on the basis of gender dysphoria.

Ten years ago, I wouldn’t have cared. The handful of men who are affected by it would not have made even a dent in my feminism.

But transactivists have altered that irrevocably.

As much as you want to make a distinction, and as much as a distinction might help women, it can’t be done.

These days I disagree on principle that one should be able to change sex. However, given the small number of men with gender dysphoria, I could probably live with it.

I can’t see how the process would work, though.

If regular transwomen joined forces with women, we would certainly get the debate going. Highlight the problem of AGP, etc.

But you would experience just as much of a backlash as the transactivists.

The only way I can see that not mattering is if you, and other transwomen like you, pass. But, that means you are having to live by stealth again.

Preventing self identification will, at least, weed out some of the Johnny Come Latelies.

Maybe that’s the best we can hope for.