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Men wanting sex with people who don't want sex with them (or at all)

(22 Posts)
Sarahjconnor Fri 10-Nov-17 10:39:49

Over the last few weeks I've been thinking about male entitlement and the abuse of women, also coercion and the number of threads on here where women have sex as 'its easier' 'he nagged' or even got agressive.

The idea of having sex with anyone who didn't want to and wasn't actively desiring me is repulsive. Utterly repulsive. Is this a male/female divide (I know namalt and I know there are a tiny minority of female abusers so let's not discuss that again) or do some women want sex with people that don't find them attractive but we're conditioned to be passive and not act on it? I watched a documentary that showed very few women use escorts and most male escorts are working with male clients, yet I also know many women have a high sex drive. Some women enjoy ONS which to me, points to the same thing as a ONS involves sexual chemistry and a mutual desire.

Sorry if this is very boring and obvious! It's not something I can easily discuss irl so please, wise women of MNfeminist chat - enlighten me.

SonicBoomBoom Fri 10-Nov-17 11:07:24

The idea of having sex with anyone who didn't want to and wasn't actively desiring me is repulsive. Utterly repulsive.

Snap. I don't understand it either OP. I cannot comprehend how anyone could get any pleasure from having sex (it's not sex, obviously) with someone who doesn't want to be having it.

Is it a male/female divide? I don't know. It's an entitled attitude, certainly. And clearly more men than women believe they have an entitlement to sex, whether the other person wants to or not.

I would hazard a guess that probably half of men would have sex with a woman they didn't think was really "up for it". Obviously there is a spectrum, with 'nagging/huffing until his wife does it' at one end, and rape at the other. I don't believe the spectrum is a particularly wide one, though.

I still hope to god believe that the majority of men are not on this spectrum and would be horrified to think women are having sex when they don't want to.

Disclaimer: I am not one of the Wise Women of MNFeminist Chat, so my post is probably clumsily worded!

DeleteOrDecay Fri 10-Nov-17 11:15:44

The idea of having sex with anyone who didn't want to and wasn't actively desiring me is repulsive. Utterly repulsive.

Agree. I don’t understand how men can use prostitutes for example. I mean if you have to pay someone to have sex with you, then they obviously don’t actually want it. Imo it’s the height of Male entitlement to think that if you want sex then they can just pay someone to get it. It’s quite pathetic on the part of those men too I think. The whole notion that men ‘need’ sex feeds into the whole men feeling entitled to sex thing.

I’m also apologising for clumsy wording.

Sarahjconnor Fri 10-Nov-17 11:29:50

Thanks for your replies, yes, entitlement.

It also all ties in with the Reddit group that has been closed today. If women had an involentarily celebate group I am sure it would be "Why does no one fancy me, I am repulsive" not "They are user/sluts and I want to kill them all"

SonicBoomBoom Fri 10-Nov-17 11:33:14

And my second clumsy wording apology as I'm not comparing rape to domestic chores... But

Imo it’s the height of Male entitlement to think that if you want sex then they can just pay someone to get it.

This entitlement extends other things than sex. Don't want to change a nappy? Don't bother. Just leave your wife to do it. Don't want to tidy up your clothes after yourself? Don't bother, just leave them on the floor and your wife will do it. Don't want to clean your own spattered shit off the toilet, don't bother. Leave it to a woman (wife/cleaner). Don't want to have to rush home from your big Important Man job because your child has fallen in the playground and needs picked up? No need. That's wife work too, she'll have to explain to her manager instead. Don't want to spend your weekends battling small children? Take up a time-intensive hobby, like cycling, golf or a season ticket to the football. Wife will pick up everything at home.

Then they come home and want sex.

Definite NAMALT with the above. My DH is nothing like that. But I know plenty of men who are.

DJBaggySmalls Fri 10-Nov-17 11:33:35

There has to be an entitlement/power/abuse element to coercive sex, or they'd just masturbate and fantasize about having great sex with someone who wants them.

Datun Fri 10-Nov-17 11:45:04

There has to be an entitlement/power/abuse element to coercive sex, or they'd just masturbate and fantasize about having great sex with someone who wants them.

Agreed. There seems to be a fine line between entitlement/need for sex and perhaps enjoying the coercion.

The Reddit incels werent just entitled, there was a underlying bitterness and resentment that I don’t think comes from just not getting the sex you want.

It’s as though they viewed the act of sex as a female put down in itself and that was part of the turn on.

Forcing women to have sex against their will is massively prevalent in pornography.

QuentinSummers Fri 10-Nov-17 11:45:08

Uh, I don't know. I think there is a difference between masturbation and sex and I know for myself DH wants it more than me, often I don't really fancy it but I get into it once we get going. So he can nag a bit because sometimes it results in me having sex and I always end up enjoying it, if I don't get into it we stop. I don't think that's unusual in a LTR.

To me tgat is very different to being aggressive/nagging every day/sulking etc. But I am not in a situation where DH won't come near me unless I am enthusiastically consenting straight away.

Sarahjconnor Fri 10-Nov-17 11:46:33

DJBaggy - this is where I got to, which explains the HW etc powerful men taking what they want wherever they want and maybe convincing themselves that they aren't seeing a look of disgust, that no meant yes etc as they are so privileged and entitled that they can't imagine anyone not wanting them. That could also explain the trashing of victims in the press - society believes any woman will drop her pants at the sign of a successful man/huge bank balance and applies to KS behaviour towards men as well.

But what about those men who describe themselves as BETAS on 4cvhan and reddit. Pathetic as they are, convinced they are deserving of sex, but unable to form relationships. I know women who have suffered rejection and they internalise it and are very unkind to themselves whereas these men seem to turn on the women they desire - ridiculing and verbally abusing them whilst also desiring them. It's insane to want sex with someone you 'hate' surely.

I feel I should apologise for poor wording etc but I won't because women need to stop apologising for their anger.

Datun Fri 10-Nov-17 11:50:00

It's insane to want sex with someone you 'hate' surely.

I’ve seen men describing it exactly like that. A hate fuck.

Sarahjconnor Fri 10-Nov-17 11:53:35

Quentin - all relationships are blend of compromise and understanding, of course a woman or a man can have sex with someone they love without actually wanting it at that moment. Like I'll take the kids to the cinema to see a film I'm not arsed about, or have a curry when I'd rather have pizza - but there is a line. At what point does a man think he has the right to cross that line? Why do men think this and women do not?

I know a few relationships where the woman has the higher sex drive and the man little/none they are celibate relationships, the women do not coerce their partners. The men in these relationships do watch porn and masturbate but their wives see the problem as either theirs (I put on weight) or it is a MH issue (he is depressed). It is a totally different way of seeing the same issue.

Thanks for the replies, this is really making me think.

Sarahjconnor Fri 10-Nov-17 11:57:05

Datun - me too. Along with the 'pig fuck' where a man pulls a 'ugly' woman has sex with her then shames her by sharing photos on social media and jeering at her. That's right - she is shamed for believing he fancied her/she had a chance of a relationship with him (despite the strong evidence he gives her) whilst he is 'BANTZ LOLZ' for having sex with a woman he finds unattractive. It messes with my brain.

Datun Fri 10-Nov-17 12:00:21

It messes with my brain.

It truly does. The Internet has a lot to answer for when you can read what these men say and think.

When Germaine Greer said women have no idea how much man hate them, I honestly thought it was harsh and she sounded a little bitter.

But since reading more, I completely agree.

It’s probably useful to bear in mind that this really is not all men.

Annelind Fri 10-Nov-17 12:04:29

Some men seem to genuinely see women as a series of holes to fuck. I feel that sex with someone (partner/spouse) who doesn't want it is merely masturbation on the mild end, and rape on the harsh end.

Sarahjconnor Fri 10-Nov-17 12:06:22

We all know, above and beyond everything that NAMALT but the fact remains that AAPLTAR (almost all people like this are men - just made that up smile haha)

Sarahjconnor Fri 10-Nov-17 12:06:45

*AAPLTAM dammit

DeleteOrDecay Fri 10-Nov-17 12:40:00

It's insane to want sex with someone you 'hate' surely.

It’s because these men don’t see women as actual people, but as a pp said they see them as a series of holes to fuck. To them whether they like the actual person doesn’t matter as long as their physical appearance meets their ‘needs’.

picklemepopcorn Fri 10-Nov-17 13:07:19

I don’t think many men are particular about who they have sex with, as long as they have sex. So it doesn’t matter if there is a connection, if the person wants it, if they like the person, as long as they get sex. It is a convenient hole, and a dislike of being denied access to a convenient hole.

deydododatdodontdeydo Fri 10-Nov-17 14:05:07

I know a few relationships where the woman has the higher sex drive and the man little/none they are celibate relationships, the women do not coerce their partners.

But I have heard of men having sex with their wives/girlfriends when they don't want to, because the wife has the higher drive.
I have known several people who have split because the man "can't keep up" with the woman. Whether they coerced them or not, not sure. They were certainly pressured.

DJBaggySmalls Fri 10-Nov-17 14:19:53

AAPLTAM - ha! Everyone is going to use this now.
We've changed from a society where we were expected to marry and be property of one man, to one where we are expected to sleep around on demand and be the property of every man.
This isnt freedom. It doesn't even benefit the men.

LeCroissant Fri 10-Nov-17 14:29:35

'So he can nag a bit because sometimes it results in me having sex and I always end up enjoying it, if I don't get into it we stop. I don't think that's unusual in a LTR.'

It's certainly something my DH has never done. Nagging is horrible in any context, but nagging in order to get use of someone's body is awful behaviour. He could do something other than nagging if he'd like to 'get you in the mood' couldn't he?

SheilaFromDerby Fri 10-Nov-17 15:14:47

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

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