I feel like we're going backwards on gay rights...

[coleridge]

See the 23 screenshots at this link:

www.reddit.com/r/GenderComical/comments/6ispks/hang_on_if_its_a_fetish_to_prefer_a_certain_type/

This chain of screenshots made me feel so bad for lesbians, especially young lesbians like the poor girl in the 3rd screenshot. It is absolute nonsense to be physically male but claim you're a lesbian and attack female lesbians with this nonsense about the cotton ceiling and how transphobic they are to not have sex with you. The great thing about sex in free, civilised societies is that you can decide not to have sex with any person for any reason and don't have to justify it! The same goes for gay men and, to a lesser extent, straight people* who are being told off for their sexuality (note - SEXuality, not GENDER), though it definitely seems like the lesbians bear the brunt of it. I'm not a lesbian, but it really makes me feel for them. How do self-proclaimed feminists encourage this?! You don't shame someone for being homosexual, you don't shame someone for not being attracted to someone, and you sure as hell don't try to change their preferences. What happened to acceptance and 'born this way'? Why are so many people so content to go backwards?

Just wanted to rant a bit and inspire conversation. Feel free to use this thread to meander about anything related to the topic.

*My fiancé had an acquaintance who announced one day that he was a woman, without making any physical changes, and developed an obsession with him. This transwoman then put him through hell for a year for not wanting to enter a relationship and my fiancé made the mistake of telling the transwoman he was straight, which didn't go down well (because obviously theirs would be a straight relationship). This person was twice my fiancé's weight and the weird obsession really left him shaken up. It's just so much entitlement - even if my fiancé were attracted to transwomen, he still doesn't owe any individual one a relationship! And this was a few years before all this transactivism stuff blew up...I'm sure he (my fiancé) would be duly shamed by other people if this happened nowadays.

[coleridge]

Sorry, the 'twice his weight' comment isn't meant to be shaming. I skipped out on a few details there! This person was much taller and larger than him and did things like try to block my fiancé from leaving rooms. I didn't mean he was shaken up because an overweight person liked him! I should be more careful with my phrasing...

[VestalVirgin]

I totally agree.

Homophobia has always been somewhat connected to misogyny. I would even say, homophobia is the logical consequence of misogyny.

Lesbians are punished for rejecting men, gay men are punished for questioning the patriarchal sexuality. If "sex" consists of a person fucking an object (and that's what patriarchal definition of sex is) then prison rape is no problem (and indeed, I am sure most men who do it don't identify as gay, or are even attracted to men) but two men in a loving relationship who see each other as equals? That just can't be. Women might want to be seen as equals, too, if they are exposed to that sort of thing.

I see the trans nonsense as a backlash against feminism. It is homophobic because homophobia is needed to back up patriarchal ideology.

Men fucking men in dresses is okay with patriarchy, because then, the hierarchy is clear.

Men in dresses fucking women is also okay, as while it might officially be called a lesbian relationship, you don't have to ask who's being fucked.

Women being in relationships with women? Fine as long as they are still willing to be fucked by men.

Note that the worst thing a transactivist can think of is a TERF, a trans exclusive radical feminist.

That's the worst thing a woman can do to a man: Excluding him. Not insulting him, not beating him up, not raping him, not killing him - simply not allowing him to enter her space.

That's what the whole trans movement is up against. Women excluding men.

Male violence is sometimes mentioned as reason why males totally need access to women's spaces, to be safe from other males, but much more often, there's just some nebulous statement "many transwomen are murdered!" without acknowledging that they are murdered by males.


What this man did to your fiancé was horrible. And yes, nowadays, everyone and their sister (not their mother ... I hope) would be on the side of the harrasser.

For a lesbian, it is a given that the male who tries to bully her into letting him rape her will be stronger than her, and she's also (to varying degree) socialized to appease males, so more likely to not even dare to reject him in the first place.
(I don't often hear transactivists demand that straight men have sex with transwomen. Probably because they are well aware many men would just punch them in the face instead of politely pointing out that they're straight. Might not be a coincidence that your fiancé was targeted instead of someone as big as the harasser ...)

[VestalVirgin]

I didn't mean he was shaken up because an overweight person liked him! I should be more careful with my phrasing...

No worries, to me, it was very obvious what you meant. As I wrote, I consider it possible your fiancé was targeted because he isn't physically intimidating.

They don't try this shit on bodybuilder types ...

[shinynewusername]

My one hope for being saved from the full Handmaid's Tale scenario is that gay men will finally wake up to the fact that sterilising (mainly) gay kids through PBs, hormones & surgery is gay eugenics.

Gay men are lower than straight men in the hierarchy but they are still higher than women and - importantly - TRAs are getting huge cover from the LGBTQ lobby. At the moment, it's really only lesbians calling for the lobby to "Drop the T". But - if men start calling for it - the media might actually pay attention.

[VestalVirgin]

Considering that most openly gay men don't have biological children anyway, I am not sure they consider the sterilization a problem.
No one ever tried to get rid of gay men via eugenics - I mean, forcing them by social pressure to marry women pretty much ensures that they have more children than they'd normally have.

Though perhaps they will wake up to the fact that if half of all gay boys are transed, that means less adult gay men the remaining gay men can date, as for all that they'll defend trans, I can't imagine many gay men are attracted to males whose reproductive organs are horribly mutilated and who never went through male puberty.
(And they certainly don't want to be with transmen. Even the gay men who tell lesbians to suck it up and suck trans dick wouldn't even think of performing cunnilingus on a transman)

[coleridge]

VestalVirgin, thank you, you've explained it so much more articulately than I could!

shinynewusername Yep, people will always be a lot more likely to listen when a man says it...sigh. A few of my gay male friends are quite vocal about 'dropping the T' though and make no bones about the fact that they have nothing against vaginas but are not sexually interested in having sex with 'people with vaginas'. For some reason, the most they get is a few eyerolls - never called TERFs, never screamed at, never threatened with violence. My one female friend who speaks out on this subject on Facebook though...it's completely the opposite. Interesting, that.

[shinynewusername]

I didn't mean eugenics quite that literally -although of course many gay men presumably would want the option of having children. I meant more that trans-ing is sexually mutilating gay teenagers.

[Datun]

coleridge

That link is just foul. A bunch of misogynistic straight men obsessed with sex. And control.

The only logical conclusion of shaming someone into having sex with you is that you're having sex with someone who doesn't want to.

The very definition of rape.

Calling it transphobic and trans-misogyny just eliminates any sexual orientation in one fell swoop.

The most galling part is that the biggest demographic, straight men, will never be targeted. Because the trans-women who are coercing lesbians aren't interested in sex with men.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

What a load of nonsense.

I see that I'm a straight "phallophile". Fine. I'm presumably also a "vaginaphobe". Fine.

I'm sexually attracted to men. Men born with xy chromosomes , a natural penis who have not had a mastectomy. I have no more desire to get up close and personal to a trans man's vagina than I imagine a lesbian would with a trans woman's penis.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

Because the trans-women who are coercing lesbians aren't interested in sex with men

I doubt if the vast majority of heterosexual men are interested in having sex with a be-penised woman either. And I doubt there are queues of homosexual men desperate for sex with a be-vaginaed man.

[VestalVirgin]

And I doubt there are queues of homosexual men desperate for sex with a be-vaginaed man.

Of course not.
The reason what we see happening most is trranswomen coercing lesbians is that transwomen have male socialisation and feel entitled to women's bodies, that lesbians have female socialisation and thus feel they have to cater to males (subconsciously) so are more likely to be successfully manipulated, and of course the fact that males are physically stronger than women.
Most heterosexual transwomen wouldn't dare to try and bully a man into having sex with them, because they damn well know a homophobic man might just beat them up, and that they have no chance to physically force themselves on a man.

Transmen are less likely to have the entitled attitude, and those who do will soon learn that gay men are not manipulated so easily. (And also able to fight back physically)

I have no more desire to get up close and personal to a trans man's vagina than I imagine a lesbian would with a trans woman's penis.

I think there's a difference.
A penis where you expected a vulva is a boundary violation and implicit rape threat.
A vulva where you expected a penis ... I'd not feel threatened. More disappointed. (Considering how violent some female trans are, perhaps one should feel threatened, but women aren't told to not walk home alone at night in case a lesbian sexually assaults them with her vulva, so ...)

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

I think it would be a little more than a disappointment. I take your point re violence but I don't think I'd be very comfortable with someone kept it a secret to that point.

[coleridge]

datun

Well, when straight men do actually get targeted, they tend not to put up with it and do not exactly respond in a gentle and kind manner, see for example Jazz Jennings's message to straight men about being just like all the other girls but happening to have a penis. The men are, for the most part, not buying it: mobile.twitter.com/glamourmag/status/880142781338877952

The more straight men do get targeted, the more likely it is that we'll see a fuss kicked up that people will actually pay attention to...

(On a different note, the more I see about Jazz, the sorrier I feel for the poor kid, e.g. medically stunted puberty meaning not enough genital development for sex reassignment surgery, talk of parents pushing Jazz into it, Jazz having to be the poster kid for transgender stuff from a young age, Jazz being disappointed and shocked at the lack of interest of straight guys, and so on)

[BraveBear]

Where are all the discussions about whether these "lesbians with penises who want to fuck lesbians with vaginas" would also sleep with another "lesbian with penis"? It's always about how mean girls are to not share their genitals with anyone who wants them. Eddie Izzard - would he have sex with another lesbian with a penis? if not, why not?

[VestalVirgin]

On a different note, the more I see about Jazz, the sorrier I feel for the poor kid,

Yeah, for the transed kids, I feel somewhat sorry.
No one admits to them that next to no one will be sexually attracted to them.
Adults delude themselves about it, too, but having already experienced sexual attraction themselves, they should know how it works.

Allegedly, puberty blockers are reversible - would it be possible to put Jazz on male hormones now?

if not, why not?

Because he's heterosexual, obviously.

But yes, it is a question we should ask any time it comes up.

(Though I assume most heterosexual and penis-wielding transwomen are clever enough to pretend that they'd have sex with another bepenised transwoman. In theory. And then it just wouldn't ever actually happen. )

[QueenLaBeefah]

I feel sorry for Jazz too. I'm not convinced her parents really have her best interests at heart.

[Datun]

Has Jazz had cross sex hormones? He certainly looks like he has. In which case, as far as I know, they are irreversible. He cannot grow an adult penis now, ever.

[QueenOfTheSardines]

Some men, enough men, are not comfortable with the idea that women are allowed to choose who they have sex with. Cue loads of problems for women throughout history - male ownership, virgin/whore stuff, rape etc.

Women who don't want to have sex with men AT ALL are open to even greater disapprobation.

None of this is anything new. Women should fuck who men want them to fuck and lesbians just need some dick. Yeah whatever.

[BertrandRussell]

Has anyone come to accuse everyone of transphobia then hide the thread yet?

[Datun]

No BertrandRussell

And it's quite interesting to note that even when these sorts of threats are posted in AIBU, there is far less dissent than there used to be.

[Datun]

*Threads!

[VestalVirgin]

I recently had a thread on the feminist boards deleted because it provoked the trans, apparently.
But since we haven't had much misogynists in other threads, I suppose that was an isolated incident, perhaps some misogynist googling and finding my thread.

[MaximumVolume]

@coleridge said "The more straight men do get targeted, the more likely it is that we'll see a fuss kicked up that people will actually pay attention to..."

Tada!

[Datun]

Tucker Carlson is busy letting straight men everywhere know that their right ( right, mind you, not choice) not to sleep with men is 'misplaced and inappropriate'.

[LassWiTheDelicateAir]

Um, Tucker Carlson is firmly on side with the view that straight men everywhere have the right not to sleep with men. From other comments he has made he is firmly on the side of every one having the right to turn down anyone.

He was quoting trans activist Zinnia Jones and pouring scorn on Jones.