Homegrown pair of alleged rapers of a drunk/passed out girl/took a video - they said they had consent of course(17 Posts)
This is a rant on my part.
A pair of alleged Nottingham University rowers - allegedly raped a passed out girl and took a video.
The Dailymail includes remarks from the defending barristers.
Sometimes I wonder what the point is of the CPS guideline saying this?:
women have the same right to consume alcohol as men
being vulnerable does not imply consent
if a woman is unable to give consent because she is drunk drugged or unconscious it is rape and only the rapist is responsible for the rape
In every case I have read of this year so far, in the UK, the alleged rapists have been acquitted when the girl was drunk. Brock Turner was more or less acquitted and only got his few months because of the passers by.
And they were lucky their case was even prosecuted.
Alcohol consumption prior to the attack reduced the chances of referral to prosecutors by 45%, as did a history of consensual sex with the suspect
If taken to court, in practice, the alleged rapists simply say they had consent and the defending barristers say things such as this quoted in The Dailymail:
V M defending B, said: 'I suggest when you left [the nightclub] you knew exactly what you were doing.
You were going back to have some fun, some sex, with these two men who you had been dancing very provocatively with on the dance floor.
M S, defending N, said the woman would not have consented to the footage but that she did consent to sexual activity with these men.
When you were in [the nightclub] you were in drink but you were not so drunk you didn't know what you were doing,' he said
You were drunk enough to lose your inhibitions, which is why you found yourself back in a flat with two men having consensual sex. But in the clear light of day you regretted that
The CPS says:
In investigating the suspect, it must be established what steps, if any, the suspect took to obtain the complainant’s consent and *the prosecution must prove that the suspect did not have a reasonable belief that the complainant was consenting*
In my opinion,that proving that they did not have reasonable belief that the complainant was consenting is never going to be possible in most cases. I looked up one of the defending barristers. She is a top barrister, a mature woman and ex nurse who will be particularly convincing to the jury, probably being paid hundreds of thousands, perhaps the other one is too. They will probably convince a jury that the defendants probably did have a reasonable belief in consent and that this trumps the prosecutor's case that she was too drunk to consent.
What I cannot understand is how any reasonable man could reasonably have sex with a drunk girl he has just met and think it is really OK, that he has true consent. This was a pair of them, respected no doubt for their rowing and their degrees, who will be in the top jobs in the future.
Sadly it seems to be in our culture that it is OK, or if not OK, the girl is blamed..
12th February 2015
Teenagers and the 55 to 59 age group were less likely to be sympathetic to sex attack victims who had been drinking or flirting than people in their 20s, 30s and 40s, the poll showed
Among 16- to 19-year-olds 34 per cent said a victim’s drunkenness made them “completely”, “mostly” or “a little” responsible, along with nearly 46 per cent who said the same about a victim who had been flirting with their attacker
This article also from February 2015 is about a barrister who openly thinks that men should automatically be cleared of rape if the victim was drunk.
I have a very simple solution which I hope you will agree is fair. If the complainant (I do not refer to her as the victim) was under the influence of alcohol or drugs, or both, when she was ‘raped’, this provides the accused with a complete defence. End of story and a victory for fairness, moderation and common sense!
Anyway, for me they are loathsome beyond belief to have had sex with her given she was drunk to any degree, and loathsome to have videoed it and to have prided themselves on their acts.
It is part of our culture for people to get drunk and have consensual sex but the same culture seems to be being used opportunistically as a pathway for rape to be very easy, and par for the course, for some men.
Stepanie McWhorter’s carried out research in 2009 in the USA. Her findings on modus operandi also confirm the basic finding of Lisak & Miller’s earlier study: 61% of the reported attacks were intoxication-based
What really, really makes me angry about this, is you don't get barristers saying to people who have had their purse stolen that they'd given the barman money earlier, isn't it true that you meant to tip him that other 50 he took from your purse - the victim is believed, unless something comes to light that suggests they're lying, and that's just about money, about property, something that the UK doesn't even care enough about that you would likely be in trouble if you hurt that same thief by hitting them whilst they stole it.
Yet when it comes to a woman's body, wether she wanted a penis put in it, suddenly the woman isn't to be believed, suddenly it's her word against his.
How can it be right that we'd trust a woman's word over 50 quid, but not over her own bloody vagina?!?!
Yuck. Those two men are hideous.
I just don't get why sex is such a big thing for some men that they are happy to penetrate someone unconscious.
The whatsapp group makes them sound like this is something they do a lot.
This whole fucking "regret" myth gives me the rage too. Why is it so easy for cpurts/some if the public to believe that a woman would willingly put herself through the stress of an investigation and trial because she regretted sex? Surely in those circumstances she would go home feeling embarrassed and not mention it again.
This whole fucking "regret" myth gives me the rage too
Oh lord yes. I've had sex I've regretted - it's entirely different to rape - and I know this because I am a grown woman who takes responsibility for my decisions. I know when I've had sex that looking back, wasn't a good idea, and when I didn't want to have sex for goodness sake.
To bring the tea analogy back: I would regret eating a whole coffee cake, but I would never willingly eat any mango cake at all.
Oh no. Don't start the tea analogy. We all know how that ends up on here
The cake one might be a goer. I bet most people have consented to eating more than is sensible and regretted it later! But how often do they blame their cake guzzling mate for forcing them to eat it too?!!
I agree with 99% of what you said, and I really, really hate to be *that person* but i have to take issue with this:
She is a top barrister...probably being paid hundreds of thousands, perhaps the other one is too"
This is almost certainly not true. The vast majority of criminal barristers are not earning very much at all in the current political climate. Don't blame the lawyers for what these men do.
Climbs off soapbox
If they videoed themselves having sex with a girl, should they not also have been prosecuted for making (if not distributing) images of child abuse?
I assume she was a "college girl" - over the age of consent
This was in Nottingham, not the USA where the idiom 'college girl' might be applied to young women
And the thread title clearly says 'girl'
Nowhere, other than here on MN, is the victim referred to as a 'girl'
She was in a nightclub celebrating end of term so I think it very unlikely she is under 16.
The 2 men are despicable.
NotMyRealName2015 Fri 01-Jul-16 23:49:21
I agree with 99% of what you said, and I really, really hate to be that person but i have to take issue with this
She is a top barrister...probably being paid hundreds of thousands, perhaps the other one is too
NotMy if you work in this field and think what I said is wrong I am sorry.
In another student case where the alleged rapist was acquitted, I looked up the defence barrister and saw he was highly experienced with rape cases, and then I saw a law firm associated, advertising for people accused of rape, where it specifically said something to the effect that, if your reputation is important to you, do not get legal aid and that they did not do pro bono work.
Then I know very experienced successful barristers get something like £600 per hour (because I once looked into one for something else for myself and that was quite few years ago.) I know directly of a barrister defending a crime (not rape or murder) who is owed a million so far. That barrister also has a whole back-up team working behind the case.
A barrister with far less time, with no back up, rushed from case to case, and hardly paid anything by comparison by the CPS would be hard put to match that.
So I assumed the barrister in question defending one of these men, who is highly experienced, would be paid a lot on a private basis. Of course I may be wrong.
Sorry that is just me. I tend to call people girls and ldid so long before I knew about mumsnet, which isn't long. The link should make it clear I think.
She seemed to be a young woman of about university age.
So much is made of people (rapists) being considered innocent until proved guilty,
But so too should the raped person be considered innocent [of telling a lie about their rape which they say happened] until proved guilty [of being mistaken in their idea that they had been raped].
I truly, truly think it's insane that the arbitrator of whether sex was or was not rape is the bloke. Whether he reasonably believed.
In other crimes the criminal isn't asked their opinion on whether they were allowed to lift that wallet, or steal that car, and wallets and cars can't even speak to put their side.
There's a human being here, she can speak, she can tell you whether it was or wasn't rape, why not believe her rather than the rapist (because why would the rapist lie)
In the article below about the court-case, one of the men is quoted. He seems to be downplaying the video part with what appears to me to be a false tone.
Burgoine said he was shocked to learn later that some of the incident had been filmed.
^He told the court^: It was probably to prove to our mates we had a threesome.
It was obviously very immature, a bit pathetic, but in a culture where everybody is trying to outdo each other with crazy antics, it was saying 'we had a threesome.
'It was in poor taste and I am very disappointed with myself.
Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3675825/Rowing-coach-accused-raping-student-claims-s-shy.html#ixzz4DdyaLxzM
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Bear in mind that the young woman who was allegedly raped never gave permission for that film either, or for permission to put it on Whatsapp.
She had had no idea the film was out there. Proving to his mates they had a threesome, as somehow explaining everything and somehow taking precedent over her deciding whether the public had a right to see her like that (even if it had not been rape) was a gross act of ignoring her boundaries.
These men are no longer undergraduates themselves and one definitely wasn't at the time of the alleged rape, as somewhere it was mentioned one had gone to another university previously. They are part of the university rowing team though. One is 25 and the other 28. So they might have been 23 and 26 at the time of the rape in December 2014. The girl was out with friends celebrating the end of term, and it was December not the end of the year, so she would have been younger - it might even have been her first term, (but that is not clear).
In my opinion, they had definitely been after someone weaker - two men against one drunk or tipsy girl:prey.
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