The Other Side of the Fence

[MsAnnTeak]

Can I ever agree, rationalise some of the common held beliefs here, when much I read is alien to me ?

Much of this place appears to be about patriarchy, the evils men perpertrate against women and children, if we change them and focus on them we have won. Women behaving badly appears to be dismissed, minor in comparison .... .

Growing up my siblings and I were subjected to both physical and mental abuse from my mother, she often went into extreme rages. Up until the age of 15 she had endured years of physical and mental abuse at the hands of her stepmother. Her father turned a blind eye, mine worked away so was unaware of what happened. She had a half sister who went out of her way to make sure my mother would always get the blame and be punished, my sister did the same to me.

Whilst I feel totally empowered when it comes to men (the posts I've read where women haven't spoken out when men are being totally vile raise a smile as I'll give any man as good as I get and more) but dealing with aggressive women has been a problem and over time I've had instances of bullying.

Many years ago I started a new job, new building, new large businesss, became a great team we were a great team. It was actually joy to go to work. A new female member of staff joined, took a dislike to me, tried as much as possible to intimidate and cause a bad atmosphere. I was due to leave due to personal circumstances, so it was no big deal but I would have been driven away eventually.

Now and again I will point out "What about the women ?" and get shot down in flames, or dismissed as a troll, or worse called a man. I just sit on another side of the fence and feel as important as it is to try and change men, it's equally important to acknowledge, and understand some the the vile behaviour women use in order to make fellow women feel bad about themselves and their opinions. I had a lovely job, was happy, it wasn't a man spoilt it and I don't think I'm the only woman to be adversly affected by the actions of other women.

Sorry for the ramble.

[BasilFoulEggs]

msannteak, have you beeen over to the stately homes threads to talk about your experiences with your mother? they have been very helpful to many posters.

vis women being nasty to each other, it is only interesting to discuss that from a feminist perspective if it has a feminist angle, imo. sometimes people are just nasty, but there is no interesting political analysis to be made from that. And sometimes there is. It's a bit late so I'm going to bed, but wanted to mention the stately homes thread to you in case they are of any use to you.

[MsAnnTeak]

It wasn't about needing to discuss my experiences, they were explored and dealt with some time ago. My ability to see women as weak, victims of the patriarchy and all the ills are a result of men are something I find difficult.

[BasilFoulEggs]

well tbh I think if that is your interpretation of what people here say, then I just think you are interpreting extremely simplistically.

sorry not to be of more help, must go to bed now, hopefully somebody else may be along to explore with you.

Good night.

[Nyac]

Not really sure how what you are describing is the other side of the fence OP.

Men's violence and aggression is structural and widespread e.g domestic violence, rape, prostitution. It is there to support male power, which women are excluded from but are subject to.

There are unfortunately violent women out there, but they are small in number compared to violent men, and their violence has only ramifications for the people who are being harmed by them and others in their vicinity.

Sorry about what you've experienced.

[lesley33]

Of course both women and men can be abusive, bullying and nasty. But feminism is about the idea that society as a whole, is structured in such a way, that it disadvantages women.

So in the UK, women still earn on average less than men, are more likely to suffer serious DV or be raped than men, more likely to be sexually harassed in the street, more likely to be imprisoned for certain crimes than men, etc.

At an international level in some countries women can not vote unlike men, are not allowed to own property, rape in marriage is legal, can legally be beaten by their husbands, etc.

Feminism is about trying to address these types of injustices. When people talk about feminism they often talk about negative experiences in their own life with individual men. But feminism does not mean that all women are nice or that some women can not be extremely nasty and abusive.

[Portofino]

My understanding is that the Patriarchy describes the current society which favours men. It has nothing to do with the poor behaviour of individuals, all of whom grow up/live within this structure and are affected by it in different ways.

Personally, I don't consider myself weak, or a victim of anyone. But I am learning much about feminism all the time and now recognise that I hold certain innate beliefs that DO originate with the way that males vs females are brought up and treated in our society.

[messyisthenewtidy]

MsAnn - from my point of view, patriarchy isn't so much about men against women, it's a system that values men's desires over women's and places traditional male values above traditional female ones.

Women can and do perpetuate patriarchy in very evil ways. Look at the women brothel keepers that make their living off trafficked prostitutes. These women have managed to get themselves up the ladder by playing according to the rules of a patriarchal system that places men's sexual desires above women's basic rights. It may be women doing it, but it's the patriarchy they are sucking up to.

As for nasty women in your life, of course nasty women exist. IME I've met women that have been horrible to other women but will still automatically defer to a man, because that's the unspoken hierarchy. Many times women are nasty to each other precisely because of patriarchy and the competition it engenders between women.

And of course there are women who are mean simply because they're mean. But what difference does that make to the cause? Feminism shouldn't need to prove that women are angels in order to merit equal rights to men. Men after all don't need to prove their worth in order to qualify.

[Sanjeev]

I have no doubt that there are rules within every society that appear to favour men over women. Some societies are more discriminatory than others. What I am never sure about is whether there are the rules written by men for men, or whether there are 'the rules' and men simply adapt better to them.

If women adapt to the rules (certainly in the UK), they can and do succeed. One example was Margaret Thatcher, who was characterised as more 'male' in her behaviour than the men who served in her cabinet. So (and this is me asking, NOT asserting), which is it?