LAURA KIPNIS is superb.....unputdownable....and so right

[Heathcliffscathy]

about the female condition imo.

may i please commend this stunning polemic to you

be warned she offers no answers, nevertheless it is a stunning exposition of what it means to be female (and male for that matter) at the beginning of the 21st century.

guaranteed to get the backs of traditionalists and feminists (of certain persuasions) up. guaranteed thought provoking and entertaining (had me lol) reading whatever you think of her views.

I would love to talk to you if you've read it/once you've read it.

[Heathcliffscathy]

would love to know what motherinferior, monkeytrousers, vvvqv etc thought of it....

[Heathcliffscathy]

bump

[Remotew]

You mentioned her on an different thread, the one about orgasms . OK I've ordered it.

[Heathcliffscathy]

bump for morningpaper et al

[morningpaper]

have ordered

[VeniVidiVickiQV]

not my thing usually but I'll check it out...

[morningpaper]

OK sophable well I am most of the way through

very well written, actually her writing style made me think of YOU sophable - I don't know whether that was because you recommended it, or becasue she really DOES sound like you

The arguments are extremely persuasive and enjoyable but also very depressing

I'm going to read some reviews of the book now so I can see what was particularly controversial

[morningpaper]

I suppose the gist of it is this:

"feminism and femininity just aren't reconcilable"

[Heathcliffscathy]

ooooo no, i didn't get that from it!! i got that feminism was stalled at the first hurdle and never became the truly liberating (women's lib) movement that it should have been....

and also, that things are a lot more complicated then women are communicative, gentle non-warmongering and men are scum.

SO glad you like it (?) and unbelievably flattered that you think I express myself a little like she does!

I need to go and buy the rest of her stuff now i think, although I agree it was frustrating and depressing reading in some ways...it made me lol a lot!

[morningpaper]

"and also, that things are a lot more complicated then women are communicative, gentle non-warmongering and men are scum."

lol

Well I think it said that women's lib failed at the first hurdle BECAUSE feminism and feministy are incompatible; that there is an 'inner woman' whose urges to be feminine in order to acquire certain things are not compatible with the feminist agenda of basically being more like men.



I wasn't wholly convinced by the dirt argument. I'm not sure that the cleaning imperative comes from a desire to scrub out one's own filth. If I had written that chapter I would have said it is more about imposing external order where there is internal disorder - i.e. a coping mechanism for internal dissonance and dissatisfaction. I.e. 'this tea-towel is out of place and I will put it IN place because I can control THIS and it is a symptom of the powerlessness that I cannot control.'

BUT I might be totally transferring my own housework drivers onto the rest of womankind.

I found last night's sex-while-menstruating discussion MOST interesting. It is not something I had thought about. I have never felt uncomfortable about period-sex and I have never been aware of any of my partners' discomfort about this. It LITERALLY never entered my head, other than as a we'll-be-needing-a-towel situation. I don't have that YUCK response. I don't know where that YUCK message comes from. I am very concerned now not to pass it onto my own girls.

(Having said that, I do understand the YUCK response to "women's bits and their emissions" in general, and the desire to eradicate all unpleasantness and be minty-fresh and lemon-scented.)

I am just on the final chapter which I am looking forward to, as I am interested in her interpretation of the Naomi Wolf/Bloom "scandal".

But overall, I was very convinced by the "feminism vs. feminity" argument and it gave me a LOT to think about.

I have ordered her other book (on 'marriage') which I'm sure I shall HUGELY enjoy.

[Heathcliffscathy]

oooo she decimates naomi wolf. which upset me as I love misconceptions...although expat would love her for it!

she hauls dworkin over hot coals too!

[morningpaper]

OK have finished now

criticism of Wolf totally justified, TBH I did NOT understand her coming out over the Bloom thing, I get her point about male-dominated and male-protecting institutions BUT the incident was SOOOO minor and her reaction so OTT naive; FGS I would have been insulted if my professor DIDN'T make a pass at me.

And the Dworkin thing was just so weird that you feel you can't even start to comment on it without being inappropriate or rude...

ANYHOO

[Heathcliffscathy]

laura kipnis is definitely on my fantasy dinner party guest list...i wonder what she is like in person, she is fucking funny on page!

[morningpaper]

Yes she is great, I enjoyed it a lot and am looking forward to reading her other work

Does she have children, do you know?

[Heathcliffscathy]

ahaaaa, she seems (from my brief google) to keep her personal life very private indeed. one part of me says 'good on her' the other says 'why?'

[Monkeytrousers]

Just seen this Soph, sorry. I am chin deep in dealines at the mo so haven't got time to read it yet. Just one thing occurs to me though and that was a thought I have had that feminist ideology and a femionist consciousness are not the same thing