French Children Don't Throw Food

[juneau]

Has anyone else read this and wants to discuss it?

[Trix2323]

I haven't yet read the book, but have just looked at the preview and a couple of articles. I live in France, so I have seen quite a lot of what she talks about first-hand. I'd be happy to discuss it. What do you think of?

[juneau]

Well it appealed to me because my DH and I are an Anglo-American couple (like the writer and her husband), who've lived in both the US and the UK and I've often wondered whether there is a better way to approach certain aspects of child-rearing. So to get a different perspective and understand how another nation does things was interesting.

The sleep thing, in particular, seems to tie modern Anglo parents in knots and so I was curious to know how (apparently!), an entire nation gets its babies to sleep well from a young age. Also getting kids to eat a varied diet and sit at a dining table through several courses, to not interrupt when adults are speaking, throw tantrums, trash the house, escape from the playground, etc. I found it really interesting and I'll definitely be trying out a more authoritative tone of voice with my two DSs. I've already put an end to the endless grazing that DS1 likes to do (and then won't eat his lunch).

I realised as I read the sleep bit though that that's what I've done with DS2 - not rushed to his side every time he whimpers, allowing him time to self-settle, more observing him than disturbing him, etc.

The French stance on BFing I don't get though. Neither do I understand or have sympathy for rushing back to work when your baby is only three months old (unless it's absolutely necessary).

[Trix2323]

I can offer a few insights on the eating thing. Firstly, French people have a different attitude to food compared with the Anglo-attitude. They don?t expect food to be either cheap or fast or plentiful. They do expect it to be delicious; and quantities may be tiny, particularly of high-fat stuff. People would be willing to drive quite a way to go to a really good restaurant, which wouldn?t be cheap.

Next, they project these expectations onto their children. Their approach is something along the lines that if you give hungry children good food they will eat it. So the DCs are exposed to high-quality, adult food from an early age. I guess the DCs develop a taste for whatever happens to be available, in the same way that Indian children develop a taste for spicy food.

The French attitude and expectation is that the children fit in. When it comes to meals, they are expected to sit at the table with the adults and to eat the food that is available. My children were exposed to this at the crèche, where there were fixed snack and meal times, and everyone ate the same thing. There were no choices to be made, and I didn?t have to make packed lunches. There was an expectation that every child would at least taste a bit of everything.

In primary school and even into secondary school, lunches typically consist of a set menu. There would generally be four items, which together comprise starter, main course and desert, as well as correctly balanced between the food groups. So the menu could be salad, fish, potatoes, chocolate mousse. Or fruit juice, chicken risotto, green beans, yoghurt. There are no difficult choices to make, such as ?Shall I have chips or pasta?. During primary school, ?frites? formed part of the menu roughly once in three weeks. They experiment with different meats ? I recall seeing venison on the menu at least once during the Autumn term.

That continued for one of my children all through primary school up to age 12. I am very happy that he now eats everything including vegetables, loves salad. He expects food to be tasty, and sometimes orders mussels when we go to a restaurant.

We have had cultural clashes along the way. One day, DS age 6 was home and the others were away. I announced that he and I would be having a sandwich for lunch. ?No, mummy?, he expressed with surprise. ?Lunch isn?t sandwich. Lunch is meat and carrots and something else?.

[Trix2323]

One of mine was a grazer, who at one stage ate exactly two things (could have been the original model for the Teletubbies diet, or so I thought).

If your eldest is four, it is not too late to develop new food habits, if you would like to. I found this book useful in developing a family approach to food that now has my teenagers eating vegetables:

The Food Our Children Eat: How to Get Children to Like Good Food by Joanna Blythman.

Hope that helps on the food! I don't know much about the sleeping.

[Trix2323]

The rushing back to work is a legal thing. French employees have great worker rights, and it is much harder to fire someone than it is in the US. Maternity leave has been negotiated to be 16 weeks. If they take longer, I think they loose certain rights, including the right to come back to work.

[Trix2323]

Sounds like you are doing a great job with your DSs. You sound very confident that you are doing the right things, which is probably more than half way there to getting the DCs to do what you think they ought to be doing (like sleeping and eating at the right time).

You do have my sympahies with trying to get over the grazing (which is not so bad in itself if what is grazed is healthy!)

On the sleeping, I do recall a neighbour - he was French and she was English. The nanny - with whom I was quite close as I was a SAHM at the time when DS1 was very small - explaining how she had been instructed to let the baby cry itself to sleep. Apparently, it took close to two hours on one occasion. I don't think I could have done that.

[alibubbles]

I read this book and identified with a lot of it, it was (mostly) how I bought my children up and my daughter was a Nou Nou in Paris and it was how she looked after 5 children under 7.

My colleague and I (childminders) take 8 children 3 and under, out to lunch every week, not fast food chain, proper sit down restaurants, Japanese, Italian, Vietnamese, they sit beautifully, eat with cutlery, enjoy everything that is out in front them and make no mess. They do not run around, shrieking, get up and down from the table, no need for crayons, gadgets etc to amuse them whilst waiting for their food.

We have conversation,make observations and discuss things they have seen or done, they are a pleasure to take aout and we really enjoy it, many people comment on their "good" behaviour, I don't think they are being"good" they are being normal, how children should behave.

We have however, see the same children out with their parents and the contrast is a sight to believe, food half eaten, discarded, mess, running around making a noise, a shocking sight!

It is all about expectation, I have set the boundaries and expectations from when they join me at 8-12 months. The children serve each other, lay the table, have napkins to use, and see eating as a social occasion not a necessary routine just to eat for fuels sake!

A problem I see is that today a lot of parents themselves do not know how to hold a knife and fork, and never eat at the table. My family have never eaten in front of the television, ever, nor will we, even when my DH is away, I use the dining room.

I see appalling table manners from adults who have no idea that they portray quite a disgusting sight when they eat!

[juneau]

Ali - I think you're right about expectations. I expect DS1 to speak properly, eat properly, say please and thank you, etc, and thus he does. People often comment on how well he speaks and his nice manners

Trix - thanks for the book recommendation and your insights into the eating and work issues. I don't agree with leaving a baby to cry either - two hours is horrible. I did the Ferber method at nine months with DS1 (which worked in 3 nights), and with DS2 I didn't need to because I got him into good sleep habits from the start.

[FreddoBaggyMac]

I'm reading this book at the moment and am very impressed with it so far. Although I'm English I seem to share many of the French views identified in the book. I thought the bit about delayed gratification made lots of sense.

I may sound like a horrible mum (or a French one? ) but I do think that leaving a baby to cry is the best policy in terms of sleep issues. We did it with DC1 and she has been 'doing her nights' from around 8 weeks and very very rarely wakes in the night. However, we have steadily got softer on our DCs, I don't think DC4 has ever been left to cry for more than 2 minutes! He's now nearly three and wakes up at least once most nights... the results speak for themselves imo!

[Trix2323]

Ali, I love the idea of you and your colleague taking small eight children out to lunch and demonstrating to all the others how children can behave!

[alibubbles]

Trix, I love it, as they are a pleasure to take out, though one of them prefers my food, she loves my homemade fish pie best. We have a new Japanese and noodle bar in the town, I can't wait to take the children next week!

[PetiteRaleuse]

I have read the book and I think she describes the typical French way of parenting quite accurately (though obviously there are many many exceptions). I was amused to see just how much of it I agreed with in that I have absorbed a lot of their parenting ideas without noticing, and seem to be bringing my daughter up that way.

I think the book is well worth a read, and has had some bad reviews from people who didn't read it properly.

That said I don't like the way the person writes, and I found her quite anti-French, which annoyed me.

[catgirl1976]

I've just read this and I loved it. DS is 15 weeks now and I wish I had read it before he was born as I think I would have handled his sleep / waking differently. He does sit nicely in restaurants though (smug).

It has got rid of my guilt about the fact I will be going back to work in 3 weeks and putting him in nursery and the fact that I combination feed. I love this book :)

[RidingMum]

I say big up Pamela Druckerman! any depressed or struggling mother should read and absorb her words - empowering and friendly.

[catgirl1976]

Thank god - someone talking about the book :) yaay

Totally agree riding - it really made me feel better and more confident about what I was doing

(despite how some people have taken my OP, I am not smug and have decided the default emotion for parenting is guilt - this book made me feel better)

[catgirl1976]

Ooh - sorry - wrong thread - I have started an AIBU thread on the book and got a bit of a slating for some reason :(

[expatbaby]

I read the book and enjoyed it. I think the most interesting thing about it is the personal comparisons between the French, American and to a lesser extent British parenting styles.

We are trying to take a more French approach when it comes to food, not just with DS but for the whole family. Makes meal-time much more enjoyable for me especially as where we live eating out a couple of times a week is the norm.

[shezzle]

I really enjoyed reading this thread and also love the idea of all the little children going out to eat with alibubbles! I think we tend to underestimate how capable our children are here in the UK and lots of dumbing down occurs as far as eating and dining goes. I found the book an interesting read and think that if you love cooking and enjoy the whole ritual of dining and sharing food as a family your children will naturally turn out the same whether or not you happen to be French or English.
The key to any eating problems is not to make a fuss and don't worry too much if a child hasn't eaten very much for a few days- they soon will when hungry! Despite my love of cooking and eating both my children went through a fussy stage, I think it is perfectly natural. I just took whatever I had prepared away and gave them bread and butter and a bit of fruit, no snacks or junk. Very soon they just came out of the fussy phase and are happy to have a taste of the meals I make, that's our rule, if it isn't liked then no problem try next time! The interesting thing is, they seem to like food they didn't before when tasting for the second time. My youngest is certainly not perfect and at times does refuse to eat something but then so do we as adults!
Getting back to the book- aside from the whole children and eating thing I found the life of a French woman, as portrayed by the author to be a little oppressive. The rush back to work, having someone else feed and look after your very small child and the pressure of having to look good all the time didn't feel right to me. If the women are happy then great, but I had my family because I wanted to bring them up and feed them. I get the fact that due to legal requirements maternity leave is probably different but are we not essentially much better off here and have many more options? Childcare is much better over in France apparently but you have to use it at such a young age, I loved my time off with the children and my job was still there for me when I chose to come back. I think the lifestyle suited the author and she was quite honest about how much is done for you as far as child rearing goes, I have read other reviews where people have stated they think she is biased but not at all in my opinion. Although her life wouldn't be for me I found it very interesting and I actually feel many British parents have similar methods to the French when bringing up their offspring. The one thing which I will say is according to the book, most French children are all well behaved etc is this not due to the fact that they are effectively brought up by an institution in their early years rather than their parents? Apparently some French kids get smacked quite a lot in public and it is acceptable to discipline this way, so perhaps not always that well behaved! Much like my daughter when out of the school routine. Great book though and I enjoy something which incites a bit of discussion. Working in a book shop I have sold lots of this to many different people so it obviously appeals!

[SuiGeneris]

Have read he book a few weeks ago so recollections may not be fresh, but it was amusing and interesting. I am an Itallian living in London and wanted to see how Continental and Anglo-Saxon parenting differed, guessing (rightly) that my own style would be nearer the French than the British/American one.
The book digresses quite a lot about the author's life, which I found a bit boring and off-topic, but the observations and comparisons are very interesting.

I think the main difference is about example and expectations. The British parents we know (admittedly not many) and the British parenting books seem to expect children to be a pain, a bit like those pregnancy-prevention dolls given to teenagers to put them off babies. So a lot of the books/ parent chatter is about "coping" and restraining the little savages either physically (eg the swaddling mania) or mentally (strict routines, going to bed in the middle of the afternoon, so having to eat separately etc). The French and Italian approach is more that your family now has a new member, with different needs (e.g. Lots of cuddles, eating at 3am in the beginning). The family reshapes around the child and the child, as he grows up, takes his place, which includes learning to be part of the family. Being part of the family means eating the same food as the others at the same time as the others and interacting with them at the table.

Of course both existing family members and new ones have to adapt to one another, so for example we now have dinner at 7.30 rather than 9 because DS (2) would be too tired by then. But we offer him the same quality food and interaction as we offer one another: for example, even when he had to have baby food, I would not offer him anything I was not prepared to eat myself. If DH is not tired and wants to read, he does, so if DS one night is less tired and wants to read a bit longer, we read a bit longer, etc..

The French childcare provision is really good: when I read what is available as standard and compare it to what you can get in the UK (even privately), it really makes me wonder why people here put up with such shoddy provision (e.g. Making children bring sandwiches from home instead of having lunch).

[KalSkirata]

I think its spot on with regards to food. None of my french friends understood why we in this country have 'special' food for children or that children ate without parents. Apart from my autistic son, my kids ate what they were given. It was the same as we ate and if they didnt eat it they went hungry.
Having said that, ds at 16 has now turned into nightmare eater. At 16. Whats the french answer to that?

[SuiGeneris]

KaiSkirata is absolutely right: children's menus with junk or boring food are a peculiarly British thing, probably reflecting common (but not universal) expectations about what children like or should eat. In France and Italy restaurants just offer half or quarter portions of what's on the menu and often make sure tables wih children don't have to wait for too long. End of story.

[KalSkirata]

In this country its expected children will only like fried beige food. This is weird.

[contractormum]

Agree with KalSkirata too - I have never understood how people have time to make seperate food for their children. At 18 months my DS always eats with us and has a very broad and healthy diet. He has his favourites but that doesn't stop him eating everything else. I haven't managed to get him to stop throwing his spoon on the floor yet when he's finished though so will have to read the book for recommendations. My authoritative voice works for most things but not that.

[Angeleena]

I'm half way through. So far a great book which points out imo that alot of the probs with British kids is their expectation of instant gratification whether that's in their parent's attention or a food (usually unhealthy) which they prefer or a need to be entertained.

There is so much information now on healthy eating I don't know how restaurants in the UK get away with offering kids' meals as they are invariably fried junk.

I have been a poor sleeper for years so am quite up on sleep cycles etc and can see that what she says in regard to getting babies to sleep through the night makes perfect sense.

Perhaps we in the UK read so much about the lack of sleep from bringing up baby that we expect it and the expectation is a cause.

I had already wondered if the constant stimulation of babies in this country (simply look at the numbers of dingly dangly jangly rattly garish baby toys there are to hang around baby's cot, seat, floor mat) was creating a rod for our own backs (or a toddler who can't sit quietly still) by causing a need for baby to be constantly amused.

My DCs are grown up and discussing having their own children. I would certainly encourage them to read this book.