Bit advice

[Mrs3ss]

He’s currently in a French link eggbutt but feel like I need more brakes. He’s forward going and has a tendency to put his head down and plough through the bit. He also doesn’t always halt when I ask him and becomes a giraffe waving his head around and opening his mouth.

I’ve only had him a few months and am still getting used to him.

I have no idea if a flash will work? Or if changing his bit would be better? He’s a 6 year old with attitude. I’m thinking a copper roller would help, or sweet iron something as he doesn’t seem keen on the bit. I did have him in a fulmer full cheek to start with but it was a single link and he didn’t like the nutcracker action (I don’t think).

I’m clueless when it comes to bits, so any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks.

[maxelly]

Difficult to say without seeing him really, and additional bits and nosebands should only really be used as part of a well developed schooling plan. A flash or drop noseband will stop him opening his mouth so might be OK as a short term fix, but won't address the root cause of why he's evading the bit in the first place, and usually if you stop him expressing the evasion in one way he will find another way - sometimes in ways that are worse than the original evasion! E.g. my little cob mare is a leaner and rusher, before I had her previous owners had resorted to a variety of harsh bits to try and install some brakes e.g. a dutch gag, a pelham but this really only resulted at first in more leaning and mouthiness, and eventually when pushed, in napping and shoulder dropping/spinning. The root cause in her is weakness in the hind end and lack of balance/straightness which means leaning and rushing is the only way she could carry the rider. She actually needs the gentlest possible bit and to learn to slow down and half halt from the seat and not the mouth. I now have her in something like this and an ordinary cavesson noseband, she still has a lot of problems with leaning but we are correcting it gradually through schooling and strengthening

www.shiresequestrian.com/copper-lozenge-snaffle-with-sweet-iron-mouth

If I am ever brave enough to take her out to something exciting like a beach ride or XC I might borrow a Waterford as the key is to get her head up rather than down between her knees (as if she gets her head there, this is where she really has the chance to p-off through pure cheekiness), but again I would really only use as a quick fix and if I felt confident in my own ability to keep a light hand and use the bit action as a correction where needed.

I would really advise you to get a good instructor (if you don't have one already) to watch you school and advise both on bitting/equipment, but on a training plan to address your issues... hope this helps, good luck!

[Mrs3ss]

Thank you, yes that does help.

That was the bit I was actually looking at, I think a loose ring may be the way forward to help with the leaning and putting his head down too low.

I’m very much in the less is more camp. I don’t like harsh bits, nosebands etc. My friend keeps telling me a 3 ring gag will be best for him but I don’t want him to have one. I don’t like them. I agree with adding more = evasion in other ways. He’s already a very nappy horse and even asking for trot he refuses most of the time to go forward. But once he gets going he’s forward and puts his head down (not in a proper outline even though it looks like it, he’s leaning and not working from behind).

I’ve just moved him yards at the weekend and he’s all out of sorts at the moment. They have an instructor who comes there a couple of times a week, so when I see her I’ll book a lesson in. I want to have a lesson once a week ideally. I’ll wait to see what she thinks of him and ask her advice.

We have a lot to work on, this is the first time he’s been schooled properly and it’s very early days for the two of us.

I think I asked the wrong question in my OP, I think I just want a snaffle alternative that will help give me more brakes by stopping him leaning. Does that make more sense?!

[puppymouse]

I would recommend Horse Bit Fit. Had a consultation for my horse and they advised on bridle fit, bit type and fit etc and we tried loads.

All the bits they try or recommend are BD legal and aren't the traditional "more brakes" type though. If you've only been together a few months I'd be inclined to have some sessions with a decent trainer/instructor to help with that rather than heavier or harsher tack. Tricky one.

[Mrs3ss]

Yes I’ve been thinking about Horse Bit Fit. Maybe I’ll have a proper look into getting them out.

Yes I’ll be having lessons on him from next week, so I’ll see what the instructor advises. I don’t necessarily want harsher, I just want the right one for him. And if it’s the right one then I’m hoping it’ll mean he’ll be happier and stopping won’t be a problem! He’s a good little horse, just very opinionated and cheeky and trying his luck in every way imaginable at the moment!

Thank you

[puppymouse]

I think you can't go wrong by making sure he's comfortable and isn't blocked or fighting you in any way. The rest is training (you and him) and in my opinion bond/relationship. When I first galloped my ex racer in an open space I had no brakes at all. Scared the shit out of me as he's FAST!

In hindsight this was a combination of things - none of which a bit would solve. Now I could probably do it bitless - might take a smidge longer to come to a stop but the trust is there, the commands are familiar and "mum knows best" so if I ask him to stop he might will.

[Biddie191]

Have you had his teeth checked? Always worth looking, if they change from easy going to suddenly leaning on the bit - it may mean that they're uncomfortable. Seems the opposite to what you'd expect (you'd think they'd back off from the bit to avoid pain) but it's like teething puppies, the more it's uncomfortable the more they chew. If it is something like that, then the more you restrict, the worse he'll get so avoid anything harsh, or nosebands to keep the mouth closed etc.
If his teeth are fine, then maybe something with a bit of leverage, but if you're confident enough, with double reins, so you can ride on the snaffle rein, but have the leverage for just when you need it. Even a pelham with double reins would be an option (go for straight bar or mullen mouth in that case....). However, probably the thing that will help most (once you've ruled out pain) is going back to basics a bit with schooling, half halts etc, if he's getting over forward, and lots of variety - hacking, playing and having fun, not all of your time in the school. He's a teenager, and needs to avoid boredom!

[Mrs3ss]

Sorry only just seen your replies.

You’re very brave galloping an ex racer in an open space 🙈 Must be exhilarating though.

He had the dentist two weeks after I got him (so maybe about 8 weeks ago). He does still have a wolf tooth which is something for me to bear in mind I think.

We had a lovely schooling session today, although he took a while to come back to trot from canter, he just got really strong. I’ve been given a Neue Schule bit to try with him, similar to the one in the photo. I also had a flash on him today and he responded really well to it.

I’ve done a lot of groundwork with him this week, gone back to basics and it’s paying off already. Still a huge way to go though.

[Biddie191]

Good luck with him, and keep us posted!

[puppymouse]

Doesn't feel like I need to be brave anymore to be honest as I know him so well now and have seen him at his worst so I know more what to expect... you'll get there

[Mrs3ss]

Thank you, I will do.

And yes that’s true puppy, I’m sure we’ll get to that place eventually as well.

Thank you for all your advice

[Mrs3ss]

Just came across my old post and thought I’d update!

I had horse bit fit out and I think I’m the only person who wasn’t impressed . I’m happy I know the conformation of his mouth and head a bit better, but none of the bits we tried suited him at all. He’s a funny little thing!! She kept pushing their own brand ones and saying he was going really nicely in it, when actually he was pulling so hard it was a battle I didn’t want to get in to.

So I stayed with the bit pictured above, and done loads and loads of work with him and we’re back in his eggbutt already and he’s going like a dream! Really turned a corner and for now it’s working perfectly. I think I’ll pop the other one back on when we go for a gallop, but just out hacking on the roads the snaffle should be fine then as well.

I’m so pleased with him, he’s such a pleaser and tries so hard.

[puppymouse]

@Mrs3ss I don't entirely blame you. I recommend them to anyone looking for help checking bits/bridle fit etc but I think their expansion and increased commerciality has had some detrimental effects.

Glad to hear he's going well!

[Mrs3ss]

I honestly thought they were completely unbiased. I didn’t realise they had their “own” brand. I asked her to try on a Micklem bridle I hired to try, and she said straight away it wouldn’t fit, put it over his head and said “see, really poor” and whipped it off again. Then put one of theirs on and said how amazing it fitted him. Which maybe it did, but looking back I wish I’d have known before that they pushed their own stuff first.

It was fascinating though, just knowing about his tongue size, palette shape etc is good to know.

[puppymouse]

@Mrs3ss they didn't have their own brand when I used them. That would put me right off. Lady I saw recommended a range of bits (some NS, others cheaper) and their bridle of choice was a Passoa anatomical one. My horse hated it.

[Mrs3ss]

That is annoying, I don’t think I would have gone with them if I’d have known. I feel like they’re not unbiased anyway.

Anyway, the snaffle isn’t working for us again! Think charging around the roads with head down loving his life! And then in the school today he just wasn’t respecting it at all. I need something that is mild but effective don’t we all Is the beval any good? The Myler style mouth piece seems to suit him I think.

[Bufferingkisses]

I'd honestly recommend trying a sweet iron in the mouth piece that seems to suit generally. I've not met a horse yet that didn't soften in one amd become more sensitive. The down side of that is obviously that you may find your old mouth piece a bit strong. Can you try a bit bank? They're priceless if you can find one.

[Mrs3ss]

Thank you.

Is the Neue Schule a sweet iron? I have no idea what the mouthpiece is made of. I was thinking of giving the horse bit shop at call, they do a 30 day trial.

[QuestionableMouse]

They're a copper alloy iirc. Sweet iron is usually much darker.

Sweet iron loose ring cotswoldsport.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65_66&products_id=622

[Mrs3ss]

That’s great, thank you. I’ll look into them.

[Gorse]

@Mrs3ss

Sorry I'm late for this thread, I'm quite new to MN, but your post resonated with me.
Years ago I had an immensely strong 14.3 native breed. Most of the time he was fine, but if anything spooked him he'd be off. Once going he was quite unstoppable, the only way to cope was by literally pulling his head around by brute force. He was always in an eggbut snaffle. I tried Martingales, dropped nosebands etc. Nothing worked. Had some very harrowing times, and one never knew when, or at what, he would take offense and run for it! One day, after about 3 years of this, I had a lightbulb moment and bought a kimblewick and curb chain. Suddenly he settled, was more confident while out and about, and the bolting stopped. Some horses just don't like snaffles of any sort. This horse I was eventually able to pass on to my daughter which was something that seemed impossible before. She had several years of happy riding on him.
I hope by now you've got your horse sorted, but if not, it might be worth trying a kimblewick.

[LeaCFBC]

Bits are just a very small part of the overall picture...this is a young horse , still new to you ( it takes up to a year for a horse to really feel settled)who sounds like he may have missed out on important stages of his early education imho, which nowadays unfortunately is very common as everyone is in such a rush, horses are backed way too early at 3 or even 2, ridden away in a hurry then sold on as 'experienced' at 5 or 6 , which is impossible if we think about it properly. I start my own horses by long lining them out for no less than 6 months before I even think of getting on them..this is after at least 2 years of just walking out in hand. Backing takes another slow 4 to 6 months, then riding away for at least a year. Which takes us to at least 5.5 years of age, as nothing is backed until 4 minimum, have waited until 7 to back my ID as cob types or larger horses don't even finish fully physically growing , where the growth plates fuse in their backs and necks, until 9 or 10. I always back mine completely tackless, if they are happy then I slowly add basic tack, but never use gadgets like flash straps, grackles, side reins draw reins or martingales etc. And I'm not even a good, superbly confident rider! I haven't used a bit for more than 20 years , and that includes with the ones in to be rehabilitated as they are described as " trying their luck, taking the mickey etc". So, the point is, as another poster rightly said, groundwork is the answer, not increasingly stronger bits and strapping mouths shut etc. If a horse can't walk beside you happily and calmly at liberty, completely tack free, why do we think it's a good idea to get on them? Because that's how so many people have been trained to think, in terms of human control over horses, not co operation and teamwork of you and horse together. No horse is "trying their luck", they are simply behaving as horses with the level of education and experience they have been provided with. So many horses think having a rider on board means you play some form of tug of war with their mouths and the riders hands, because they haven't been taught otherwise...at 6, he is very much learning . Please research Positive Reinforcement for Horses to find the only scientifically researched or proven ways to teach horses to be safe, co operative and happy. Learn how horses learn, and maybe one day people will look back at how putting stronger and stronger harsh metal bars in horses mouths and expecting complete control through force and pressure was a crude short cut that was the only option for far too long ...none of this is personally directed at you, OP, just important information for anyone who is interested in helping horses learn in a humane and intelligent way. Best of luck .

[Eve]

My DSs new horse came to us in a rubber hanging cheek which he would just lean on and was incredibly heavy on the forehand and very strong.

We put him in a eggbutt myler which he really likes - recently instructor suggested a loose ring - which he hated and he hates any sort of lozenge or jointed bits.

For jumping he was in a rubber straight bar pelham and again head down , leaning and very strong , we have changed that to a tom thumb ( which some people hate) but its made a real difference to the leaning and made him listen when jumping.

[Mrs3ss]

Still not really sorted . I had his wolf tooth removed in the hope that would help! It has done out hacking, we now have a lovely chilled hack and he only puts his head down when he’s tired towards the end. It’s much more enjoyable experience! I hack him in a neue schule universal.

The school is a different matter entirely! I’m currently trialling a bombers ported barrel eggbutt... I haven’t actually tried it since he had his tooth out, but before it was removed he was very strong in it. Yesterday I tried our original french link eggbutt... it wasn’t a good experience!! I have a lesson on Sunday so I’m going to try the bombers again.

Thank you all for taking the time to reply. I really appreciate it. I still feel far from satisfied. And yes I agree with you Lea to a certain extent, I don’t like strong bits at all, but sometimes it’s a needs must situation from a safety point of view. But I’m determined to only need a snaffle when schooling. Just which one is the question!!