observations by pupils!!

[CtrlAltDelicious]

Bloody hell!
Just spoke to my friend. He teaches in a secondary and is middle management with a good TLR. He didn't get home until 9:15 tonight as he was having to input data for 3 teachers who are on long term sick. He announced at the end of the conversation that he needed to go as he was being observed tomorrow. I asked by who (whom?!) and he replied "a year 9 pupil."

Seriously.

They have given her a proper observation proforma to record her findings. What the fucking fuck is this about? Is this routine or is it just an academy thing?? I'm genuinely shocked by this...

[newbieman1978]

Find out the reason before getting all uptight about it!

Work experience?

At my sons school they do various "jobs" throughout the year to gain experience. Anything from running errands for the school office to meeting and greeting to assisting class teachers.

[CtrlAltDelicious]

I actually just disagree, I'm not 'uptight' thanks...

I think giving year 9 pupils observation sheets and having them make judgments on teachers' performances is wrong in any circumstances. It was not work experience. They do this as a matter of course and feed back. (How awkward?!) . I find this really inappropriate and I can't see it would happen in a school where unions had much influence.

Observing professionals is hardly the same as running office errands.

[blueemerald]

A few schools I worked at as a TA/ during my PGCE did this. It was a little off putting but was primarily a box ticking "student voice" exercise for Ofsted. Only the most desperate to please students were chosen and they were given strict training (told not to be jerks) beforehand. It's a very strange idea but I've never seen it done in a way to harm someone (but I guess it is possible).

[CtrlAltDelicious]

Interesting thanks, Blueemerald. I just can't seem to find it ok, however I think about it. I think I'm just remembering the horrors of having someone there watching you, making judgments...but you respect it for the most part as it's a fellow professional. The idea of getting that hot and cold panic because a student is there with their clipboard just does NOT feel right to me.
And in the feedback - would you just nod sagely while the student pointed out the highlights and lowlights of your lesson!?

[newbieman1978]

Try giving the facts in your first post!

But basically I doubt any of the pupil feedback is taken very seriously or in fact very useful.
So I'd not get too up tight about it myself!

[blueemerald]

In the schools I worked at the set up was there would be two students and a member of staff observing you (could get quite crowded) and they would meet after the lesson before the feedback session. At the feedback session the member of staff would give most of the feedback. I didn't much like it either but it was far from the worst thing that happened to me during my PGCE!

[BrianButterfield]

I think it's totally unacceptable. Pupils are not trained in observation, nor could they understand what they are looking for. Whether or not it is taken seriously is irrelevant - it is undermining the professional status of teachers. I would not accept feedback from a student in that situation and the union in my school would not allow this to happen, frankly.

(I would also like to add I am against any professional being judged by untrained people - i.e. effectiveness of GPs or nurses being judged by patients, and so on.)

[CtrlAltDelicious]

As I was posting in the Staffroom, it didn't seem necessary to explain that "being observed" did not simply mean some kid on work experience sitting in the lesson. Being observed is a formal, stressful, critical procedure which no professional in ANY field would welcome from a 14 year old child. I'm sorry you didn't realise that.
I'm also sorry you felt the need to repeat the "uptight" comment. It speaks volumes about you.

[Runnaway]

Always thought the observer had to have QTS to meet union rules on observations.

[CtrlAltDelicious]

Pupils are not trained in observation, nor could they understand what they are looking for
Yes, this gets me hugely. With a fellow teacher you can have that discussion of "yes I chose to focus the questioning toward X because he needs that to push him up to a C" etc. but of course you can't have this discussion with a student. Do unions really have so little sway in academies that this is ok?

[BrianButterfield]

I remember observing on my PGCE before I started taking classes. "Oh ho ho!" thought I. "Why, all this silly teacher needs to do is...(x, y, z) and the class will be eating out of her hand! Sue Cowley says so! I wonder if she's thought of using a card sort."

Of course I was an idiot, and knew nothing, and a couple of hours minutes in front of a class soon put me straight. I can't even imagine how wrong-headed I would have been at 13 - and I was exactly the sort of well-behaved, thoughtful, suck-up kid who would have been chosen. I would have thought about it carefully and carried my duties out with pride. But I would still have been utterly, utterly wrong, because...13.

[newbieman1978]

I feel you are taking the whole thing out of context, these pupils are not actually observing the teaching. They are playing a role and in my opinion doing no harm.

[TheFallenMadonna]

Are you a teacher newbieman?

[CtrlAltDelicious]

Sue Cowley says so! I wonder if she's thought of using a card sort. Oh God! I was exactly the same. I mentally picked apart all the lessons I watched and was convinced I had the key to the Perfect Lesson. Cringe.

I agree with your second paragraph too but you know what? Even at age 13 I'd have known it was totally inappropriate for me to be saying to the wonderful 60 year old Mr Coles, "Oh well I LOVED it when you used the paired activity but I felt the pace of learning really slowed down when you explained the use of antithesis. Have you considered reading Pie Corbett?"

[newbieman1978]

No... My business in predominantly with schools, I spend about 3/4 days a week in schools. Plus my wife is a head so I've pretty good insight into teaching and schools.

[CtrlAltDelicious]

I feel you are taking the whole thing out of context, these pupils are not actually observing the teaching. They are playing a role and in my opinion doing no harm.
Thank you so much for reassuring my pretty little head. I'm overthinking obviously.

[BrianButterfield]

I've got no problem with listening to student's points of view. I may even, if I were feeling generous, ask them how they feel about aspects of teaching and learning. I will not countenance a student with a formal observation sheet, criteria et al sitting at the back of my room observing (and not participating in) a lesson.

[BrianButterfield]

I might pop along to my local hospital and ask to observe an operation. I've been operated on, so I know what a good operation looks like. I think I'll go to the fire station too, and ask to watch them put out a fire. I've read about how to put our fires. And I'm sure the police will let me sit in on an interview and give feedback. I want them to catch criminals, so my feedback can only be of use to them.

[SunsetDreamer]

Hahahaha

Unless you are a teacher you have no real insight!

[MagratGarlik]

At my old university (ex-SL), students were regularly asked to carry out a student evaluation of teaching, which affected your performance review each year. If your SET results fell into the bottom 50% for the faculty, it automatically prompted extra peer and management observations and you automatically could not be judged above a certain grade in your performance review.

I know it is a little different, because 18 year olds are more mature than 13 year olds, but still, they were often unaware that pinning general gripes for a module onto an individual could have huge consequences for the individual.

I think hearing feedback from all sides is absolutely valuable, so long as it doesn't influence factors such as pay and performance review and so long as management take into account that factors which influence the judgement of a student are very different to those which influence the judgement of management/ ofsted/other external bodies

[noblegiraffe]

This is absolutely unacceptable. Where are the unions? Their guidance strongly states that you should only be observed by a fellow trained teaching professional. Not a governor, not a parent and certainly not a fucking Y9 kid with a clipboard.

It's bad enough being observed as a maths teacher by a non-maths teacher and receiving feedback from them when they have no idea how to teach maths (which is a very different kettle of fish to e.g. History). But being observed by a child with no knowledge of pedagogical methods is insulting. My kids would give a thumbs up to a whizz-bang lesson involving explosions or ipads, and diss a lesson working through questions regardless of whether the kids in the first lesson actually learned anything.

[newbieman1978]

No I know, no one can any sort of insight on another's profession can they?

FYI... I'm a massive supporter of teachers and teaching, I'm married to one! It's a job I couldn't do, not through education but because I don't have the talent for teaching.

But I can, have and give opinion as its a free country.

[SunsetDreamer]

It doesn't mean your opinion is valid, though