Why do I continue to be surprised by this?

[needastrongone]

I belong to a breed specific facebook page for our puppy. I keep meaning to leave it to be honest as they don't really discuss training or any 'issues', just post a lot of 'cute' photos and videos. Just my own POV, but I get a bit bored of this as, everyone knows, our own dogs are easily the cutest, cleverest and most amazing dogs in the world

I cannot believe how many posts mention dominance or aversive training or pack theory or the like, why to I continue to be surprised at this?

Video today, two dogs playing happily together, displaying no calming signals whatsoever, just having fun. One starts humping the other with excitement. Clearly (!), it's dominance and must be stopped immediately!!

Thud...... (that's me hitting the floor)

[GobblersKnob]

Ha, me too, and you end up in pointless circular conversations with people who have no desire to do anything different. There was a one the other day when someone just would not have it that it wasn't the best idea to smack her dogs when they did something she disapproved of

Unfortunately so many people agreed with her that it is impossible for the few who don't to make much impact.

It never fails to astonish me how much so many dogs put up with.

[needastrongone]

I am really glad this is not just me

There's just so much crap out there that I just wonder if positive training will ever be the 'dominant' (see what I did there?) training approach.

And my two can stop with the guilty eyes, given the life they blodoy well have

[TooOldForGlitter]

It just isn't going away is it. So much of it around. I joined a raw feeding group on FB and their tagline is "Dogs are wolves and don't you forget it!". Really

[TooOldForGlitter]

In fac

[TooOldForGlitter]

Oops.

In fact, the specific branch of the rescue my greyhound came from, advise spraying in the face with water for unwanted behaviour and establishing alpha dog status asap.

[needastrongone]

That's the thing isn't it? The 'experts' perpetuate the myth.

Our first training class that we took ddog1 to tried to sell us a choke chain, I have had outdated advice from our first vet (I changed vets) and, given anyone can set themselves up as a trainer or behaviourist, things seem unlikely to change

[moosemama]

I'm afraid it is pretty entrenched in some areas, but it is so much better than it was even 5-10 years ago and light years ahead of how it was 20+ years ago when I got my first dog, so things are moving forwards - just not fast enough for so many poor dogs.

The thing that worries me are the number of dominance/pack theory sellers who dress their training up as positive reinforcement when really it is anything but. So many so called 'dog whisperer' out there (not that everyone who calls themselves a dog whisperer is into pack theory, but there do seem to be an awful lot) who think that because they use treats to train they are using positive handling, when they also use aversives and punishments and spout all the usual crap about humans being pack leaders, dogs spending all day every day plotting to overthrow their owners and what they need to do to stop their dogs being dominant over them.

People go to them because they say their methods are positive and don't harm the dog, then end up with dogs that have worse problems from being manhandled and/or punished into not behaving in a certain way, leaving them angry/stressed and in many cases potentially far more a of a problem than they were in the first place.

[Lilcamper]

Anyone can set themselves up as an institute to train trainers and flog certificates online too.

The sooner the industry is regulated, the better.

[moosemama]

Totally agree.

You'd think the government would want to back regulation in dog training, given how keen they are to push anti-dog legislation and supposedly how keen they are to tackle the problem of 'problem' dogs.

[WalterWhiteMakesBlue]

I must admit, when I had my first dog 20 years ago (before the internet!) we relied on vets for advice and being put in touch with behaviorists and trainers, and in the 3 areas I lived it varies between the 'Barbara Woodhouse' method and then 'the pack theory'. We even had a 'problem dog' 10 years ago and the behaviorist very much advised the pack theory. And to be honest in our case it did work. I'm not saying that Positive Reinforcement wouldn't have worked better - I expect it would have had faster more positive results.

I think it's only in the last 10 years that internet has become more common that people can broaden their ideas. Reality TV still seems years behind and promotes pack theory type trainers. I think whilst this goes on and people see some results they will continue to believe it is ok.

I had to completely rethink my training approach when we got WalterDog 2 years ago as all this was new to me. I lurked on here and got information. But boy can I see a difference in the result. WalterDog is more 'contented' than any of our other dogs and I find I actually enjoy doing the training and reinforcing as it is all positive.

It is frustrating though when people have potentially dangerous dogs and insist on the pack theory when they could get so much more effective results with modern techniques.....

[needastrongone]

I am doing the distance learning behaviour and training diploma courses run by Sarah Whitehead, one of our assessments was to watch a DVD of one of Barbara Woodhouse's training programmes and make comment about how the dogs emotional state during training.

Nearly cried watching it, I honestly did

And don't get me onto Cesar Milan - wa**er (fill in the blanks)

[needastrongone]

However, and slightly aside, the trainer that we used for ddog1's KC awards didn't belong to any positive training association yet used only praise and reward as incentive.

I've given up with Ddog2, I changed to a APDT accredited training, who is very lovely, but does the training in 6 week cycles, putting the dog in for the awards 'when ready', rather than 8 weeks, then test per first trainer.

Ddog2 is a working cocker, soft as lard and clever as they come, and could do the Bronze award pretty before we started training. I know this, having just done it all with ddog1, therefore having a direct comparison.

Kind of resented paying for training, that I know I didn't need, until I am 'allowed' to do the test.

Anyway, that's off topic

[needastrongone]

'trainer'

[Lilcamper]

I just did a foundation course with COAPE and need to save for my next one. I am a provisional member of the PPG too.

[affafantoosh]

www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/

The above site was written by Rachel Casey and is supported by familiar big names such as the RSPCA and Dogs Trust. Their logos are all used on the press statement page. It is a useful way of responding to packtand dominance discussions.

"It's interesting you say that - I was under the impression that all the big dog organisations agreed that this concept is flawed now? Even Dogs Trust endorses this website - look at this link ..." then step away, don't argue, and trust that someone somewhere will take it on board.

Not many people will be able to successfully argue that they are right when the combined might of the APBC, Dogs Trust, Wood Green, RSPCA and all the big academic ethology organisations say they are wrong, but it's best not to give them a wall to bash their head against just walk away.

I think it was Sally Bradbury who said that it's best to find common ground instead of arguing - eg "Yes Cesar is right to say that we need to be calm and treat dogs like dogs ..." - and as someone who meets avid Cesar fans daily I think she has a point. It is easy to switch people off if you say something they don't like.

[affafantoosh]

www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/

The above site was written by Rachel Casey and is supported by familiar big names such as the RSPCA and Dogs Trust. Their logos are all used on the press statement page. It is a useful way of responding to packtand dominance discussions.

"It's interesting you say that - I was under the impression that all the big dog organisations agreed that this concept is flawed now? Even Dogs Trust endorses this website - look at this link ..." then step away, don't argue, and trust that someone somewhere will take it on board.

Not many people will be able to successfully argue that they are right when the combined might of the APBC, Dogs Trust, Wood Green, RSPCA and all the big academic ethology organisations say they are wrong, but it's best not to give them a wall to bash their head against just walk away.

I think it was Sally Bradbury who said that it's best to find common ground instead of arguing - eg "Yes Cesar is right to say that we need to be calm and treat dogs like dogs ..." - and as someone who meets avid Cesar fans daily I think she has a point. It is easy to switch people off if you say something they don't like.

[affafantoosh]

Oops