Can anybody help me with the disaster that is my recall skills?

[permaquandry]

Ddog; 16 mths, not particularly clever or obedient. I say this with kindness, as she is lovely but is not showing any signs of understanding, ie: she doesn't go to the back door for toilet, she takes a long while to 'get' any kind of command.

I am fully prepared to be blamed for her lack of obedience, I hold my hands up but I wonder where I am going wrong.

I persist with commands and reward with love, attention and usually a small treat (her kibble, usually).

Have had several disasters off lead, so she is always on lead (retractable, I understand this can compound problems, but she is walked on or near main roads for most of the daily walk). I've recently been taking her to safer fields, where there is no easy exist. So far, so good, always returning on command (maybe on 2nd-3rd call), rewards with small treat or a positive affirmation (good girl and a nice stroke).

Today, however, she completely ignored me, decided other dogs were more interesting and just ran around/off with them. I changed my voice to more commanding and called her at least 10 times. She blanked me. I then walked over and began calling her again, she came near me, then shot off again. I managed to grab her and put her straight on lead and took her to the other side of the field.

I let her off again and she wandered off a little way, I called her again, 5 times and she just ignored me. Cue me putting lead back on and back to car.

Did I do the right thing here and where am I going wrong in general? What is a suitable action for them not responding to command, ie. when I call her at home, she just ignores me and sits and stares at me, so I go over and pick her up. Is this right?

Thanks for reading, any advice would be appreciated.

[Racerider]

I have a new pup and this is what the trainer taught me. Practice at first in the house where there are fewer distractions.
You use the dog's name to get attention. Hopefully if you say your dogs name she looks at you ?
The command for recall is say dogs name, then come. Say it once. When she comes you have a treat on the floor right at your feet. This is close enough that you could put a lead on. Only say it once. If she ignores it count to 10 before trying again.You do not want her to learn the command is repeated 4 times before she has to come.
Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. A treat every time she comes.
When you are out the treats may need to be extra delicious.
The dog needs to learn that coming back to you is the continuation of fun and returning to you is not always time to put on lead and go home. Recall often in walks just for the sake of it and make a fuss each time with treats.
As I say it's early days for me but this is what I was taught !

[Lilcamper]

A successful recall should be rewarded with a high value treat, every single time. Practise recall at random times throughout the walk, and release her to go off again, not just at the end of the walk. Say your recall word once, don't repeat it over and over again. Reward when she does come back whether it takes her 5 seconds or 5 minutes.

[Lilcamper]

Your voice doesn't need to sound commanding, she is more likely to ignore you if you sound angry. Why should she come back if she knows you are annoyed? Your voice should be light and cheery, you need to make yourself as exciting as possible, use a visual cue too, spread your arms out wide, crouch down, pat your thighs. She needs to want to come back to you.

[flowery]

How's your tone of voice?

When we had help with our dog, his recall was perfect with the trainer and as soon as I took him out it was a disaster. Trainer came out with me and observed me. Apparently I was calling him in an apologetic tone of voice, and as though I was assuming he probably wouldn't come back.

When we use a really firm yes-I-do-mean-come-back-right-now-this-instant tone of voice, his recall is perfect.

[flowery]

x posts. Light and cheery doesn't work for us. Firm does, as well as the crouch down arms open thing.

[permaquandry]

Thanks for the replies. I've tried the happy, encouraging voice, and tried the more commanding one. Neither works, though I accept I may give off a sense of desperation, rather than sounding authoritative.

When I hear other owners doing recall, if the dog doesn't respond straight away, they use a more 'serious' voice and they immediately come.

She just doesn't want to come unless there's something in it for her!

[permaquandry]

Oh and also, I do take extra special treats out on these off-lead walks, for an extra incentive.

[cashewfrenzy]

Of course she doesn't want to come unless there's something in it for her! She's a dog, that's how they work!

I'm going to pick out things from your first post, not because I'm mean but because it might help you understand.

You talk about a "lack of obedience". To get a dog to do our bidding we have to make them want to do it. You need to find a motivator. Food is usually best but many dogs love certain toys such as tuggers and a small number are excited enough by human interaction to be motivated by contact or praise. In your shoes I'd slightly restrict feeding by making each meal about 60% of the usual amount, and I'd fill my pockets with chicken, cheese, hot dog or liver before every walk. Kibble is filling and dull so not ideal unless you have a serious foodie.

You've had several disasters off lead. It happens to everyone! But the trick is not to let them happen again. Each time she does a bunk she's learning just how much fun there is to be had away from you. She must not be let off the lead unless you are as certain as you can be that she will recall. So the field was safe but there were other dogs - that's a huge leap in terms of the level of distraction she's having to deal with, and was clearly too much because she didn't come back.

As has been mentioned, calling her ten times just teaches her that she doesn't need to come back first time. Ditto going to if she ignores you - this can easily turn into a game of " I can make my owner chase me". Instead, call her name in a squeaky voice and turn in the opposite direction and move off briskly. She's much more likely to come.

If you have a disaster and she bails out on you, don't let her off lead again to repeat it! Of course it'll happen again!

A suitable action for them not responding to your command is to take a big spiky stick and give a good whack over your knuckles to punish yourself for setting her up to fail. Next time don't make it so hard for her!

Training is a process. You're expecting her to recall perfectly but you aren't working through the steps first. It's like expecting a child to write a novel before they can write a sentence. Unless you are more fun than another dog's bum or a pigeon or a pee-marked tree you're not going to succeed, so start small by doing lots of fun games in the house and garden. Perhaps consider clicker training if you feel she isn't "getting it" with your current methods.


drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/teaching_rover_to_race_to_you_on_cue

Above is a nice article from a brilliant veterinary behaviourist about recall training.

[NuttyMuttie]

Main and most important thing you need to change is rewarding with kibble - you must use high value treats, try cheese or hotdog or liver cake.

Remember recall for the dog is the start of something more fun than they were doing before.

[basildonbond]

with dpup we say 'dpup - here' in quite a high squeaky voice - if it's a low-distraction environment that's usually enough for him to start charging over - otherwise we crouch down low, arms open or if it's really serious start running away from him

he's much better with me than with dh - dh just doesn't sound high-pitched and 'exciting' enough

we do several recalls every walk and give him something yummy every time he comes back - every now and then if he's nearby I treat him randomly

we also do lots of games so it's fun to be with us

he's 6 months so obviously has the potential to go off the boil as he enters teenagerdom ... but working ok at the moment

[permaquandry]

Thanks for your reply Cashew.

You raise some interesting points.

I disagree that dogs only come when something is in it for them. I had a dog and he came to heel, regardless of treats, because he was obedient and he didn't get like that through treats or rewards.

I see a lot of dogs responding immediately, without a reward, even with distractions.

I appreciate that I'm not even close to that with ddog and she will definitely need a reward until she responds all the time.

I take her to somewhere she can't escape from because my concern is her getting run over or disappearing for good, I want her to be with other dogs and I want the distraction so that we can get recall to work, even with distractions.

I let her off the lead again after her refusal this morning as there were no other dogs around to distract and I wanted to see what she would do. I also wanted to demonstrate 'if you don't come, you're going back on the lead'.

I still want to know what action I can take to show her what happens when she doesn't recall.

She DOES know how to respond to recall as she does it 8 times out of 10 and did it consistently last week, she was rewarded handsomely and I was really encouraged again for this week.

Clearly, I'm no dog expert but I do believe dogs should obey all the time for their safety as much as any other reason, regardless of the distractions. He may have been a one-off but my old boy was extremely obedient, you could walk him on the pavement with no lead (I didn't). He learnt through consistency. He just 'got it'.

She looks at me sometimes as if to say 'you're not the boss of me'

[Lilcamper]

This might help:

And this: Getting Rid of the Treats

[Lilcamper]

And in her eyes, putting her back on the lead means that coming back to you is the end of fun, not that she is being put on for not coming back.

[MothershipG]

perma For some dogs the positive attention of their owner is enough to bring them back, for your old dog it was, but for this dog it just isn't and as much as you might want it to be it's just not going to happen. So this this time you are going to have to work at it.

High value rewards and lots of practice with no distraction. As you said your dog knows what to do, now you have to get him to want to do it, because you can't make him, or get him so conditioned that he does it without thinking.

I have 3 dogs, 2 don't run off and have great recall, the other is a completely different personality and still a work in progress!

Out of interest what breed is your dog?

[MothershipG]

Sorry, just noticed new dog is a she, not a he. Interestingly my well behaved dogs are boys and my naughty one work-in-progress a girl, I think bitches are sometimes more independent/confident than boys.

[Lancelottie]

I am so going to steal the phrase 'more fun than another dog's bum', Cashew.

[permaquandry]

I think I need to accept she's different, it is a cause of disappointment and frustration that she isn't like old boy (How I loved that dog, we often joke that he is hiding his eyes in doggy heaven when he looks down on her).

I will let go of that and start again.

I must add that this is a theme, all the advice I was given on puppy biting, toilet training etc didn't work and believe me, I tried all methods. This is beginning to look like it is my bad training but I did have several dog experts shaking their head at her and almost giving up!

If you had to guess what breed, what would you go for? She's small, about the size of a large cat and very funny. I'm looking at her now, lying on the kids blanket (no, she's not supposed to do that either) and I adore her.

[cashewfrenzy]

Dogs can be conditioned to obey you but you can't expect that without doing the groundwork. You were very lucky with your last dog that you didn't have to work too hard to achieve a conditioned response.

" I also wanted to demonstrate 'if you don't come, you're going back on the lead'."
That message, to her, is "if you come near me, I'll be put on lead and the fun will stop". She'll quickly learn to stay well away from you when you're trying to recall her!

"I still want to know what action I can take to show her what happens when she doesn't recall."
When she doesn't recall she gets to keep having bum-sniffing fun. So you need to first prevent failed recalls by setting her up for success and not expecting a dog who has yet to master recall to manage it in a distracting environment. Again, asking a child to write a novel before they can write a sentence. You need to lower your expectations and spend time teaching her that you are worth returning to.

[Owllady]

I think perms means she built a relationship with her last dog and he just did it. My last dog was the same too. I really can't remember training being at all laborious with her, she was just incredibly loyal and wanted to please.
They all have different personalities :)

[MothershipG]

My mini schnauzer is my problem child, is she some kind of terrier? if she isn't she should be an honorary one!

[kitsmummy]

border terrier is my guess sounds just like my terror cross

[permaquandry]

Mship is correct, miniature schnauzer.......

[Lilcamper]

All the more reason to find out her motivator, I have worked with schnauzers, they do like food rewards and one particular one worked well for carrot slices

[permaquandry]

She does love a carrot. Though she's not greedy, nor does she hassle for food. She'd rather eat your socks or a kids alice band as I throw the 3rd one in the bin this week

[MothershipG]

Not to put a downer on things but although my MS is highly food motivated in nearly 8 years of trying (including employing the skills of several trainers and a behaviourist) I have yet to find the food/toy/activity she likes more than chasing a squirrel or going through a hole and sniffing in an alleyway. I'd pay good money for the answer.