routine vaccinations - any experts about?

[thegriffon]

My dog is 2 now, last year I didn't pay much attention when he had his routine vacs, but this time checked product info online to see what was due. He had Nobivac Lepto 2 and Nobivac DHP last year.
Info said said DHP should be given 3 yearly and Lepto 2 every year, so should only be due Lepto 2 this time.
Went in to have vac, saw vet had 2 vials so asked what he was giving - DHP and Lepto 2 - I said I understood DHP only needed to be given 3 yrly and would he mind checking the package insert. He said he'd speak to a colleague.
Came back a few minutes later and said I was right, the manufacturers recommend it be given 3 yearly but I should consider having it done today as Parvo was a very dangerous disease . I said I'd rather follow the manufacturers guidelines and my dog was given the Lepto.
When I went to pay the receptionist looked confused and said "only one vaccine's been given, that can't be right, they always have more than one". So it seems it wasn't just this particular vet getting confused but a general policy.
I work in child health and manufacturers guidelines for vacs are always followed. If immunity has been shown to last 3 years it's pointless giving a vaccine every year and could increase risk of side effects.
I don't understand why a vet would advise this, surely it can't just be because they want the money?

[CalamityKate]

Well they try to flog Hills Science Diet as a wonderful food because they get commission. And last time I was in they tried to sell me Dentastix as good for teeth. So yes they can and do recommend stuff because they want the money.

[midori1999]

I don't think anyone is saying that all vets are just after the money, but vets are businesses after all and there certainly are some practices who seem more interested in the money than others. Also, like any other profession there are good and bad examples.

The recommendation to change to 3 yearly vacc happened some years ago, there's really not any excuse for the vet not to know this, surely?

[thegriffon]

Dilemma247 - vets are highly trained professionals, surely they should keep up to date? If my dog was injured or ill I'd want him to be treated by someone who was on top of things. If they don't know the current vac guidelines what else don't they know?

[miggy]

Can't blame avarice here, the cost of the vaccination to you is the same whatever you have but the cost to vet is cheaper so they would save money by doing it properly.
New guidelines are very recent, not even sure if all vaccines manufacturers have adopted this yet.
There are two factors in play, firstly guidelines from vaccination research group but vet also bound by the manufacturers data sheets which have been slower to change as involves extensive testing. Vet would be in trouble if went against data sheet and you then had a problem.

[Lonecatwithkitten]

The issue is that the data sheets say that the DHP can be given every third year - the important word being can. There is some feeling rising in the veterinary community that whilst the data sheets say it is okay we are beginning to see some parvo in the dogs who only have it every third year. My practice use Duramune that had three schedules with it's vaccine from DAPPi every year to every third year after much humming we have plonked for the middle one every other year. Not having the DAPPi doesn't make much difference to the price as the lepto is the expensive vaccine to make.

[thegriffon]

Lonecat - it made a difference to the price. I paid £35 last year for DHP and Lepto, yesterday cost was £15 for just Lepto. Dog also had physical check by vet each time. Cost isn't an issue for me, I just want to do the best thing for my dog and avoid problems caused by unnecessary vacs.

[thegriffon]

also forgot to say the data sheet for Nobivac DHP doesn't just say it can be given every 3rd year, it's very specific about immunity for 3 yrs. Copied and pasted from data sheet -

Specific claims
Onset of immunity: one week after vaccination.
Duration of immunity: three years.

[Scuttlebutter]

I think Parvo is too serious an illness to dick around with. We live in an area where there are sadly regular outbreaks. Ours continue to have annual vaccinations. No medical intervention is entirely risk free but I'm happy to have made the choice in favour of vax. I'm old enough to remember the parvo outbreaks in the 80s - a vile, horrible way for dogs to die.

[thegriffon]

Scuttlebutter - I know Parvo is a serious illness and I want my dog to be protected but am also aware that vaccine side effects in dogs have increased. The manufacturers of Nobivac DHP state that immunity lasts for 3 years so I'm assuming, as I would with childhood vacs, that they've done the research and that the vaccine only needs to be given 3 yearly. Am I missing something here, do they do any research? Perhaps other brands of vaccine differ.

[Lonecatwithkitten]

There is no reference just a feeling amount the UK vet community from the cases we are seeing. It is chatted about in the coffee breaks at meetings.
My vaccine is Duramune and it uses the words can rather than anything else. But there is also a whole controversy around whether the vaccine is a Parvo 2a or 2b strain and the cross protection that this gives.
At £15 for just a lepto your vet almost certainly will have made a loss by the time they have factored in their time.

[Lonecatwithkitten]

Yes other brands of vaccine do differ. Yes they have to do the research, but on relatively few dogs.
The WSAVA recommendations say primary course should be three doses not two and that they first yearly booster includes Parvo. They then recommend 3 yearly so their recommendations are in contrast to the Nobivac data sheet. You can have good read of these guidelines on the WSAVA website where the JSAP article is available (iPhone so can't link). The guidelines were updated in 2010 and 2007 prior to that so will probably be redone this year. Welcome to the minefield these guidelines state throughout them that should be made taking into consideration local field knowledge.

[thegriffon]

Thanks Lonecat, its a lot more complicated than I thought. A friend's dog was diagnosed with autoimmune hemolytic anaemia 3 wks after DHP vaccine, no way of knowing for definite but there may be a link so I'm being ultra cautious.

[Lonecatwithkitten]

For IMHA my practice has administered 4000 doses of dog vaccine in 3 years and had one case of IMHA in all our patients whether vaccinated or not. We have had. 7 cases of parvo in this time 5 of ehich were fatal, all unbaccinated. Any kind of Immune stimulation can trigger it so vaccination may have been the cause equally getting a scratch and the immune system defending against infection can cause it. There are risks with vaccination, but they are much much rarer than the diseases.

[thegriffon]

Lonecat - thanks, good to read this after all the vaccine side effect scare stories on the internet

[midori1999]

Thegriffon, have you discussed the possibility if titre testing with your vet if cost is no issue? It is usually a bit more than the vaccinations and obviously would be if it turned out you needed the vaccination as well, but until last year when we decided we needed to vaccinate in order to kennel our dogs, none of them had had any vaccinations except their puppy vacs and a booster at a year old, then yearly titre tests and none had needed vaccinating. The oldest is 9.

[thegriffon]

Midori, that's amazing for immunity to last 8 years! I thought about titre testing but my dog is always very lively at the vets, he loves it there and wants to play and impossible to keep him absolutely still (took 2 stabs of the needle yesterday and I'm not absolutely convinced it all went in). So I can't see him letting blood be drawn. Unless there's some kind of device that'll keep a paw or leg immobile?

[poachedeggs]

Do bear in mind that a high titre can indicate exposure to disease as well as response to vaccination.

[Lonecatwithkitten]

A device to get a leg immobile - veterinary nurse.

[poachedeggs]

Lonecat

[Lonecatwithkitten]

They are very special devices. I am feeling bereft as my head one is at BSAVA!