Here are some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on SN.
Radio programmes on receptive language delay (www.teachmetotalk.c
I've just listened to one on asking questions. Right now I'm listening to this
T here is some very good discussion on the "questions" one on what questions a child should be taught to answer at what stage . Let me know if you can't navigate to it from the one I've linked to.
It's quite a challenging listen - lots of chatting about parents who don't want to know the truth - and as many of you will know, it takes a fair bit to depress me about DS2 - but I recommend a listen, perhaps with chocolate to hand.
Here's the other link to the one on questions. www.blogtalkradio.com/Laura-Mize/2009/04/23/Teach-Me-To-Talk-with-Laura-and-Kate
In some ways it's better than the DVDs she does (which I already have).
I think what made me uncharacteristically depressed was one of the hosts saying that parents want to stop work once the child reaches a certain point of development but the work never stops.
However, they did also say that children never grow out of receptive speech problems without lengthly intervention......so maybe I'll call in next week and metaphorically "produce" DS1 (6.5, fully resolved receptive language delay) with a flourish?
I'm off now to say "I'm thirsty, I want a drink. teddy wants a drink too. What do we do when we're thirsty?" Eight thousand repetitions should do it and hey who wanted a career anyway?
Lingle - you might also want to look at my recent thread "surprise of the day", I'm struggling to get SALT and school to admit DS now has significant issues
Have to say all that I read when DS was 3 and had a massive delay on both expressive/receptive was very very much doom and gloom on the receptive.
Thanks Lingle. I'll have a listen. I do get rather tired of the 'its all up to the parents' line though. I am totally aware that I have to put work in and I don't always do as much as I could - a lot of stuff to juggle.
But doesn't mean I don't care. And doesn't mean that DS doesn't deserve good services too.
DH said to remember that these therapists are living in their own little American bubble.
Shall I call in on Thursday and ask them to be a bit more cheerful? .
" lots of chatting about parents who don't want to know the truth "
Most professionals think parents are like this - but I have no idea how common it is in real life. Every one I have met on Hanen/Hospital therapy programs has been mostly pessemistic about their chlld's future. I do know these children have dx of autism not just delay but there is no shortage of supposed miracle cures for autism either. Do professionals remember the 'in denial' ones more than the bland other ones?
Cyber, this aspect of the discussion is a typical "professionals moan about their clients" one. It's similar to lawyers joking about how the clients probably won't act on their advice.
I found it a bit patronising but I think professionals have to let off steam and sometimes need to feel a bit superior to reinforce their sense of self-worth.
I think I might write a more positive book on receptive language delay as Hanen is failing to do so!
I didn't like the way they talked about the children sometimes - "not a clue" and then laughing - disrespectful imo
But it mainly depressed me because it made me realize how ds is falling behind
That sounds awful - I'm not tempted to listen now. Actually this happened on the Hanen course ( a rare sour note) when one of the SALTS laughed at severely autistic boy on a video - His mother was trying in a very over enthuiastic way to get his attention and the SAlT said something like 'Oh dear I hope she 's not expecting to him to understand that giggle giggle'
"receptive language delay"
This is very hard to assess in autistic children ( note said by hospital professionals not me). My brother had a lot of work done on his ears (grommets/fluid drainage etc) because this was supposed to be the answer to why he ignored people. Most likely hearing the rubbish people speak in crystal clarity made him more determined to ignore it.
not had a chance to listen to the program yet so can't rally comment specifically ... but at denial - apart from before the very first SALT assessment, where I naively thought that SALT would say - oh yes he's just a few months behind - I have never been in denial, and didn't even want him to go into mainstream but to a language unit.
I don't think those parents who are in denial can be blamed for it - as other than SALT and the more competent professionals, the world and his wife come up with platitude after platitude - "he'll speak when he's ready", "my boy's speech was terrible until he was 4 (then you find out he had a slight speech sound production problem, like getting t and c muddled), he'll be fine once he's at school/nursery. ad nauseum. People want you to be in denial and to have a fluffy optimism IME.
Em - I've been in your shoes to a degree regarding the language issues, obviously not the other health issues. I did find the 36 month period extraordinarily difficult, and felt that DS was getting further and further behind as he was languishing on waiting lists. I can't really think of anything I could have said to myself 2 years ago though, that I can say to you now - other than what worked best for DS was to use loads and loads and loads of visuals and photos and simplification of language
don't have time to do it now but am going to summarise the programme to save those who can't face it the pain of listening to the annoying bits.....
after DS2 and I visit Tescos that is.......
Lingle, that would be a service to humanity. And also writing that book.
Question-asking skills - receptive language.
In order of development (but I don't "do" milestones so I'm not putting any ages in here)
1. "where's mummy/teddy/something exciting?" by looking at the object or otherwise reacting in a way to show understanding.
2. Choice questions
start with holding one of each in your hands or using a visual.
3. "where's the X?" on a picture - respond by pointing.
4. Go get/show me the X.
(v) ideally, from another room
(iv)if that's too hard, try from across the room
(iii)if that's too hard, from a selection on the floor
(ii) if that's too hard, from two objects in the adult's hands
(i) if that's too hard, adult takes child's hand and selects hand over hand.
5. "What's that?" - respond with appropriate noun
NOW TO THE TRICKIER ONES - I WILL NOT SAY WHAT AGE LEVEL THEY EXPECT BECAUSE THAT'S NOT HELPFUL BUT THESE NEXT ONES SHOULD ONLY BE ATTEMPTED WHEN YOU CAN DO THE ONES ABOVE.
7. Respond to "where's mummy?" with an answer like "at work" or "in the sitting room"
8. Object function questions
"Who says moo? does a sheep say moo? NO! A Sheep!"
"Can you point to something that we wear?"
"what do we need to make dinner? yes - the pot".
(more details on this in my other thread of today)
9. Critical thinking questions - making inferences.
"What do we wear when it's cold?"
"Which one is an animal? Which one is a building?"
11. Negation - "which one is not wearing a hat?"
"Can you give me the rest of them?" "Can you put some in the box?"
Hope that helps.
Many thanks for that summary. Interesting - the only one of those DS could do at 3 would be the animal sounds (think he learnt them by rote.....), he certainly could do choices aided by visuals before responding appropriately non-verbally to the "where's mummy" type questions.....He can do all of them now, the difference 2 years make!!!
Lingle, I can't thank you enough for this - you may have just saved my sanity. I'll bookmark the links but save listening to them for when I am feeling less raw.
cheers guys, can I just say that the DVD "teach me to listen and obey" is Much much more positive and "safe" to listen to.......
total - yes, re the animal sounds, they point out that kids often learn to answer to "what does a sheep say?" but when you turn the question around it reveals the receptive language delay (they can't answer "who says baa?")
I hope you won't think I'm crashing your party when I jump into your discussion here, but anytime I read a review of my DVDs, website, or podcast, I do feel inclined to thank moms for pointing parents who are searching for help with their language delayed children my way. So for that, I thank you!
Secondly, OUCH! I hear your criticisms loud and clear! I feel like I owe those of you who were offended by our discussion on Teach Me To Talk with Laura and Kate an apology. I'm so sorry that talking about parents who are in denial hurt you. I especially regret that you felt that some of our comments were insensitive about children or their parents. Please accept my apology. That was certainly not my intention.
Let me also add that from reading your posts, I would say that a discussion of parents in denial wouldn't apply to any of you at all! If you are working with your child and actively searching for more information to help him or her, you are THE GOAL! My wish would be that every child with a language delay would have committed parents like all of you, but sadly, this is not the case. You likely won't meet this kind of parent in your journey with your child since you are meeting other parents like yourselves, but I occasionally do, and unfortunately, Kate sees them every day. I will also add that I get emails from parents who tell me they didn't understand the extent of their child's problem or how hard they needed to work at home until they listened, read, or watched. Until now, those were the kinds of parents that I thought about when doing the show, but after reading this discussion, I'm rethinking that position.
Lingle - I'm very glad you took the time to transcribe the intervention information for your other parents. I hope that you're all finding the specific advice helpful. This was my focus when I started the website because there seemed to be so little REAL advice out there for parents who desperately wanted to know exactly what they could work on to help their children. Again, parents like you are the goal!!
Lastly, let me say that I am terribly upset that I gave anyone an impression of hopelessness. The only reason I get up and go to work in the morning is because KIDS DO GET BETTER! Even children with receptive language issues, and especially those with committed parents who day in and day out are in the trenches working with their children, long after the speech therapist leaves. Those are the kinds of parents I set out to help, and this board seems to be filled wtih them! I hope that even though I've been annoying, you can get past that, and more importantly, take the information, the specific strategies, and run with them!
Best wishes to all of you - Laura Mize
Hi Laura thank you so much for your post. How exciting to have you visiting mumsnet! I hope we can persuade you to drop in from time to time. Cheeky question - Would you consider having the "contact a mumsnetter" facility activated so we could call you in to settle questions from time to time? I know you must be very busy and am sure you don't have time to check in regularly.
What a constructive reaction to our criticisms - thank you so much for being so open. Nice to know that you'll have us committed but easily bruised parents in mind too next time.
It is, as you have said, astonishing that there is so much information out there on expressive language and so little on receptive language. Even Hanen doesn't talk about it that much in their "It Takes two to talk" book. Why do you think this is? Is it something to do with the traditional training methods? Is it something to do with the arguments about what ASD is versus what language problems are? I think it's great that you have produced these practical guides - you're a bit of a pioneer here.
Your radio show was particularly strong on telling us what order to teach things in, by the way. You'll have see that a few of us were groaning at having taught things in the "wrong order"!
I posted on your forum by the way to suggest that you show the way of teaching first and second person pronouns with three people present on your next version of the videos, by the way.
By the way, I've summarised your other shows in this post too.
There are a few sardonic remarks in there too, which I am now blushing about, but at least your advice is being passed on.
With best wishes and thanks for checking in.
LauraMize - thank you very much for taking the trouble to respond, and for being so constructive. Btw despite my gripes about "denial" I do recommend your site to people on here, as the info and video extracts are so useful to those who haven't managed to talk with a SLT yet.
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