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Here are some suggested organisations that offer expert advice on SN.

Singed by AIBU

(60 Posts)
zzzzz Sun 30-Dec-12 00:47:16

I know there must be others of you who find some of the views expressed on the main boards about our children really bruising.

I want to say how impressed I am with you all. You take no shit, and you are funny and human in the face of extreme provocation.

I have been having a bit of a sniff about it but "Tolerance is...." has caught m imagination.

Honk honk my dears.

EllenJaneisstillnotmyname Sun 30-Dec-12 01:13:42

Honk honk.

Tolerance is putting up gracefully with a DC excitedly and enthusiastically flapping and bouncing in front of you during a Panto. That sort of thing?

zzzzz Sun 30-Dec-12 01:27:35

Yup. sad

lougle Sun 30-Dec-12 08:45:31

I'm torn. On one hand, I can see the fact that a child can't help flapping, etc. On the other hand, I do think it's helpful to minimise the disruption it may cause. DD1 is, frankly, hard work at church. So, we make sure we sit at the back, next to an aisle so that we have space.

Ineedmorepatience Sun 30-Dec-12 09:54:28

Dd3 once dropped an ice lolly down someones back at the panto while she was jumpimg and flapping, the other members of my family saw it happen but noone told me until we came out, I was horrified that none of them had apologised.

Dd3 still takes great plesure in repeating the story very loudly whenever we go to the pictures or theatre.

Oh god, I wonder if that person started an AIBU about us.shock

I try to stay away from AIBU it gets really vile at times sad

CwtchesAndCuddles Sun 30-Dec-12 10:16:59

I'm also torn - ds is accepted in church, and they are used to his outbursts but when it comes to the sermon / talk I will take him out if he is very distracting.

I think it is unfair to the speaker and other members of the congregation to allow ds to act in a way that prevents them from hearing what is being said.

WeWilsonAMerryChristmas Sun 30-Dec-12 11:33:08

I caught up with that late last night - too late to be coherent. But there was more than one poster who changed their minds or thought about their initial reaction. Thanks to you and Team SN. So I'd call it a win thanks

SauvignonBlanche Sun 30-Dec-12 11:36:50

It's hard work and depressing sometimes but we did put up a good show.
I loved kungfupanda's suggestion.

zzzzz Sun 30-Dec-12 12:17:19

kungfu panda. Ideas were inspiring.

It's interesting that so many of our sn ers remove their children when they are disruptive. I wonder how old those children are? For example those of you who don't stay for the sermon at church, would you stay if your child was older and listening but making noise? If you do how is your child going to be an equal member of the congregation?

We go outside or leave if things are getting too difficult, but I do that for the nt children as well. I don't go to venues that I feel are too challengeing for ds (unless forced to by circumstance), but that's our choice and my parenting style (I favour slowly expanding boundaries rather than chuck in at the deep end sink or swim).

One of the great things about mn sn is it has allowed me to think about my stance on sn. There are lots of things I simpley had never given much thought to unil ds came along ( and he is only 7).

Tolerance is.....understanding it's not an even playing field.

Wilson blush I am strictly flock, but yes there were some brave old geese out there blazing a trail through the dark.

sickofsocalledexperts Sun 30-Dec-12 12:44:08

I would not allow my DS to disrupt a whole audience's pleasure like this. If we ask people to be tolerant then it has to work both ways, so we also respect the other 99% of the audience's right to enjoy the show. I spend a lot of time and energy teaching him to be quiet in the cinema, haven't braved the theatre yet.

silverfrog Sun 30-Dec-12 13:05:17

I was on the thread early on.

Some took exception to me suggestion that sometimes, some stims can be reduced/eliminated, and that sometimes it can be as simple as reminding the child to do X/not to do Y.

I got quite a lot of grief for that, and roundly told that to stop/reduce stims was cruel and that the whole world should accept dd1 warts and all.

To a degree I agre - dd1 has a place in the world and we certainly do not hide her away, keep her away from anything or constantly harp on at her to keep still/quiet/whatever.

We also, however do a LOT of work to ensure she is as calm and happy as possible on outings, and that her behaviour is as socially acceptable as possible.

We have removed dd1 when it has become necessary. But it has not been necessary too often - mostly we do so when she is quite deliberately inflaming a situation (root cause may well be sensory, but the resulting behaviours are OTT for dd1 at that point, iyswim) as to not do so would (in dd1's case) result in more extreme behaviour the next time we tried to do whatever it was.

We take dd1 everywhere from the local cafe to posh-ish restaurants to panto to the Albert Hall. Sometimes it works, and we 'ask' our immediate neighbours in the audience to ''put up with" behaviours, and sometimes it doesn't and we remove, regroup, and either try again or mentally note what needs to be worked on.

This is how it is for us, and to be told that to do so is cruel and Unaccepting of dd1 and her autism was actually quite hurtful.

Dd1 is 8, btw.

sickofsocalledexperts Sun 30-Dec-12 13:23:24

I agree Silver. To argue that an autistic kid's right to stim noisily, to the detriment of a whole audience's right to hear the show, does the cause of inclusion no good at all. Anti social stims will narrow down my DS's life: to leave them unchecked is short-sighted and cruel. My very nickname on here relates to my nausea at the bleeding heart "experts" when Ds was 3,advising me "ah,bless, leave him to flap his little hands,bounce up and down and shriek "eeeeee" on continuous repeat, it is just his funny little special ways!"

What I say to them now is this.

Fast forward to when he is 19. He now weighs 16 stone, is built like a prop forward and is 6 ft 5. He is bouncing so that the whole bus shakes and booming out an odd "eeee" noise. Are you going to sit next to him on that bus?

zzzzz Sun 30-Dec-12 13:24:42

sickof I didn't read that OP as the child stopped the performance. I read a small child was jumping up and down banging his head in front of an adult man, for parts of a panto. I spend quite bit of my time 24/7 teaching children how to behave. My ds sniffs when stressed, not a delicate little sniffle but a full blown throaty sniff. I think it is a tic and an quite frightened about it. He can't help it. He can't stop it. It hurts. When it started he spent a lot of time in trouble for doing it. Without a level of tolerance he's not going to go anywhere, see anything. Is this so very different?

I feel a bit for the Dad because I'm guessing he couldn't reach him and that the "smack bum" comments were to stop things escalating. I used to say "gentley, gentley" to my ds until I realised it made people think he was about to attack. blush (he is non violent but bouncy)

sickofsocalledexperts Sun 30-Dec-12 13:27:12

I think you an retrain a lot of behaviours,even when they seem unconscious. Not saying it is easy though.

EllenJaneisstillnotmyname Sun 30-Dec-12 13:30:27

I expect many of us would try to calm the flapping etc down, but if the DC is just excited, not distressed but this is how they behave when excited and despite your best efforts they can't sit perfectly quietly, are they not 'entitled' to still enjoy a Panto? This is a Panto, not Shakespeare, remember. Does this not come under reasonable adjustments? If you take them out every time, they may never get to enjoy a Panto.

It's like the difference between Sunday family church and a wedding. Regular churchgoers should accept some disruption if they want to be truly inclusive and ensure a DC is brought up as part of their christian community, surely. If the person with a disability is gaining from being in the congregation, why should they leave. Should a christian person with Tourette's be banned from church services? Or should the church make allowances?

I'm not a Christian BTW.

sickofsocalledexperts Sun 30-Dec-12 13:37:08

There is a balance IMHO. I can remember being outraged when my noisy 3 year old DS was asked to leave a friend's boy's bar mitzvah. How dare they, I said,he has the right to be included? But , looking back, what t f was I doing expecting him to sit through it. And his right to sit thru it meant no-one for 3 rows in front or behind could hear a word of the ceremony. I had put DS's rights ABOVE those of everyone else, and that's not right either.

zzzzz Sun 30-Dec-12 13:46:06

You can't retrain tics sad anymore than you can retrain an epileptic seizure.

Nt 3 year olds get very little from attending other than behaviour training, and will grow out of it. Older children, may have perfectly normal levels of interest and enjoyment in a panto but be unable to sit still. It's like broken leg versus amputee?

StarOfLightMcKings3 Sun 30-Dec-12 13:54:22

An NT child might NEED to empty their bladder. It might be uncomfortable for them to have to hold it.

Hell, I'll just accept that they should not be restricted from addressing their needs and encourage them to piss all over the bus. Cruel not to.

WeWilsonAMerryChristmas Sun 30-Dec-12 13:55:56

I will stand on my tongue before I criticise another parent of a child with SN but on the first reading of the OP told it, I think if the father had been beside the child showing that he was trying to manage the behaviours, some slack may have been cut. TBF if there was an NT child in front of me getting over-excited and the parents were hissing at them from two rows back, I would have been a bit hmm too.

And while you can retrain a lot of behaviours, that specific child in that specific situation could have been doing really, really well. I do keep coming back to the fact it was a panto too. You expect bedlam at a panto. I bet there were plenty NT kids shouting for sweeties and jumping up and down.

StarOfLightMcKings3 Sun 30-Dec-12 14:03:51

Tbh, Ds does better at Shakespeare stuff because the rules are clear. You sit still. You shut up.

At a pantomime, the sensory experience can be overwhelming and sometimes you can make noise and sometimes you can't and all the people everywhere are fidgeting and Ds can't follow the story nor the social rules.

This is why we go to usual cinema shows rather than autism ones.

I think there is nothing wrong with taking a child who may be potentially disruptive to something new, but I do think that it should be planned for, practiced and monitored and if it is beyond the capability of the child to behave in a way less disruptive than the most disruptive NT child then the step might be too great at that time and the next show will need to be planned differently. Perhaps different seats, shorter showing, younger audience etc. just don't ever give up on your child and their ability to access these things.

WeWilsonAMerryChristmas Sun 30-Dec-12 14:06:11

Agree with that Star DS would struggle at a panto but is great in 'normal' theatre situations.

zzzzz Sun 30-Dec-12 16:13:42

Mine would struggle with both. grin. We've never been to a panto. For me the experience doesn't balance the fallout IYKWIM. I've don long haul flights though. Possibley there are lots of people who think we should stay at home.

sickofsocalledexperts Sun 30-Dec-12 16:40:04

Tbh I'm quite glad to have an excuse not to go to the panto, or quite a lot of theatre!

MissingInAct Sun 30-Dec-12 16:45:53

The way I look at it is that children (and adults!) with SN should be included as much as possible in all activities.
But sometimes, this is not possible. Yes it is restrictive for that person (child or adult) with ASD. Just as it is restrictive for someone to be in a wheelchair (Not all places are accessible for example).

I have a long term illness that restrict me in what I can do. It's annoying, sometimes my heart breaks because I would like to do an activity with the dcs and I can't and they would really like me to be there too and tell me so.
I suppose this is the same for a parent with a child with ASD. You want them to be involved, you want them to be able to do as much as an NT child and they can't always do so sadsad

So for me the best place is a balance of everyone's needs. For a child with SN not too disturb everybody at a panto (and I would guess it is also the sign that it's perhaps not such a great experience for them too, very overwhelming instead). But for our society to accept that children can be disruptive (SN or NT for that matter) and that people (not just children) with SN should also be allowed to access things like cinema, theatre etc...
Perhaps the answer is in imposing that all cinema/theatre offer some relaxed performances instead of making them difficult to find.

More likely it is about compassion and respect on both sides.

lisad123everybodydancenow Sun 30-Dec-12 16:59:36

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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