Verbal and Non Verbal Reasoning

[IndigoBell]

Just noticed that DS has a huge difference between his verbal and non verbal reasoning scores. (Very high non-verbal quite low verbal).

Does this explain why he finds writing so hard?

Would improving his verbal reasoning improve his life/writing?

Is there anyway to improve his verbal reasoning?

[coff33pot]

It could explain why he finds writing hard in the descriptive sense Indigo or understanding understanding the concepts of what he is reading and having to put it into written word.

www.kent.ac.uk/careers/tests/verbaltest.htm

I found this on the web and there seems to be a few listed of verbal and non verbal tests that an employer might use for a student. Those interviewed would read sentences and have to make a judgement wether they feel it is true or false etc.

I guess it would improve his life in the sense that he can learn to read between the lines and make judgements, for discussions in groups and letters he would receive in the post, and help him to make decisions in future employment.

You could make excercises for him by taking extracts from books, newpapers etc and inviting him into a discussion, ie talking about the event, how he would change the event, what outcome does he think will happen etc to help him transfer his non verbal stile into words? Then maybe asking him to write a sentence altering the outcome, feeling or event. Then hopefully his written word in essays, letters, stories or ideas would improve?

Not sure if this is what you mean though so sorry if I am barking up the wrong tree

[coff33pot]

incidently.............I just did that test and scored 11 lol

[daisysue2]

My two dds both have high non verbal and lower verbal only one of them is SN. The EP said basically the low scores in everything apart from NVR show that there is a level of intelligence there that was being masked by the language difficulties. If they score low in the NVR then it generally means there is a low IQ.

Helping with the VR is just part of a process of helping with the development of language skills and reading and comprehension levels. Which is an important part of education and being able to access education.

How old your DS is would be a major element how to improve his VR. Younger children it would be reading, comprehension and conversation.

[IndigoBell]

Thanks.

DS is 10.

His reading, comprehension and conversation all seem fine. In fact he enjoys reading and reads an awful lot.

His real area of difficulty is writing..... which isn't helped by his fine motor difficulties.

But I think a huge discrepancy between VR and NVR scores must mean something.

I'll talk to the SENCO once school goes back.....

[IndigoBell]

Bump

I know someone knows more about this but I can't find the old thread.

Working? or MooseMama? Somebody had a link to a page that described all this sort of stuff.......

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Can you teach him a few scripts/rules for writing. It will be robotic at first but might help.

i.e. fairy-tale:

Once upon a time there was a [insert hero] who [insert problem] because of the [insert undesirable characteristic] of a [insert villan].

Letter:

Dear x,

I am writing to you to

3 paragraphs

Nice platitude

goodbye greeting.

diary:

On [day of the week], I went to [insert place] and I did [insert activity]. I [insert emotion i.e. enjoyed, hated] .

Apologies if this is way inappropriate. My ds isn't anywhere near yours in age so it might be inappropriate, but I hope the concept can be adapted to be relevant!?

[IndigoBell]

Star - yes I think that is the way I'm going to have to go.

It's not exactly what I want. He has loads of ideas and is really good verbally. What I want is for him to be just as good in writing :)

But, I think we are going to have to build up to it in baby steps. He can't get away with quite the formulaic stuff you describe, because he's too old for that. But I do think we can improve his writing an awful lot with practice.

Actually maybe you're right. Maybe what he's missing is rules and formulas which I can provide. Hmmmmmmmmm.

I'll probably end up going for a tutor, because we're doing enough with him at home at the moment and I don't think we can fit anything else in.

I kind of have this thought that the SENCO should know of something

I think this is a really standard (SN) problem - high NVR and low VR, and school should know what to do about it........

Thanks.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

I dunno Indigo. I don't mean that he becomes rigid in the formulas, just that it is a way of starting and as he becomes used to them he can start experimenting with variations or things to put in between iyswim. But he has a skeleton should he need it.

Another thing you might be able to do is record his ideas as he speaks them. Very short bursts at a time, and then help him to convert them into text, - or do it via voice recognition software.

Again, not for life, but to try to breakdown the process.

[IndigoBell]

Actually thinking about it, the hardest thing is that he does all his work in school :)

And I have no idea how he does in it. About once a term I get to look through his books and talk to his teacher and I'm always very disappointed.

But I don't know what he's studying each week, nor do I know how he does in class......

This is possibly the hardest problem to overcome :)

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Yep. Sorry but yep.

Could you befriend a mother who DOES know via her own child, what they do!?

[IndigoBell]

Luckily it's Y6 and school will be very keen for his writing to improve this year (for their SAT results)

So maybe school will be more accommodating than normal......

Hmmmmm. Just need to work out what I want, and how to ask for it :)

What I want is his completed work, so I can help him redo it and learn from his mistakes....

However the idea of him redoing any work is pure fantasy, so even if that was possible it wouldn't work.

Nope, think it's going to have to be a tutor, who I can direct to work on the problem of 'translating thoughts into written words'.

And leave school to do nothing whatever they do.

[coff33pot]

Indigo my DD is NT and she has just turned 10. On her recent report they cannot grade her as she is two years above herself (ie senior school level) in maths/reading etc etc. She was reading at 3 and her imagination is wonderful, she can fully comprehend books and express ideas and talk about them and has made stories via videos and computer aids that earnt her high marks but her writing and written essays were appalling to say the least and she is still battling with it. For want of a simple way to explain.....her head is going to fast for her pen so that when she goes to write it becomes a muddle. There is usually tears because she knows what she wants to put but cannot express it iyswim.

She is improving slowly, the school set whole school competitions where the child has a month to prepare a story on a chosen subject out of three options. you get a bronze, silver, gold award parents are also encouraged to join in and send in stories too. Each one is either for imagination, descriptive, it could be poem form, or art form, or publishing a leaflet. This has helped her. Every child gets an award.

When she is writing and has got stuck, we have been getting her to scribble her ideas down on scrap beside her and encouraging her to read what she has written, discuss whether it should be altered and how she should go about it. This seems to destress her and she is able to visually see what she has written as opposed to working it all out in her head and getting confused. What I do then is recognise what areas she has faltered on and write out some dummy sentences and ask her to tell me how best it needed amending. We just do one sentence a night.

School also give them start off paragraphs and ask them to produce a story, documentary, sales advert etc from that. So they learn how to start off a story etc. Or have a story but they have to prepare and ending, dramatic, exciting, follow on, sad. Perhaps you could try this at home too.

[rabbitstew]

It is a very common finding in aspergers for the verbal IQ to be much lower than the performance IQ (although the discrepancy can happen the other way round - a very large discrepancy in general is MUCH more common in people with aspergers than amongst NT people). This isn't quite the same thing, however, as verbal and non-verbal reasoning abilities, as verbal IQ also encompasses things like mental arithmetic and working memory. Performance IQ is mainly visual-spatial abilities and processing speeds.

[oodlesofdoodles]

Hello Indigo
I'm interested in how you know your ds's discrepancy between VR and NVR. Did he take a test?
Anyway, my suggestion is mind maps (google or a Tony Buzan book from the library). I use them all the time to make lists and to write articles. I used them a lot at school (a long time ago!) to help write exam essays.
I agree with Starlight that a lot of written communication does follow set patterns and it's okay to start with simple forms to build up his confidence.

[IndigoBell]

I did those bond 11+ papers with him.

I think mind maps is the answer. Because I think it's about thinking too fast, and mind maps allow you to get loads of ideas down fast.

I've tried them with him before and he hated them. But I think I'll try again and see if he can work out how to like them :)

Also allowing him to make notes on a whiteboard might help.....