9MO DD2 is keeping the whole house awake at night - NEED to do something, maybe CC or PUPD??? Your success stories/tips please

[aliceinlalaland]

started a thread on here a week or so ago. Am really really struggling with DD2. She wakes up for hours at a time at night and nothing will settle her. I've tried bottles, hairdryer (which usually works when she's over-tired) - if I hold her in my arms and rock her she goes quiet and seems to go to sleep but wakes the second I move to put her back in her cot. She sometimes goes quiet if I stroke her hair but I just can't spend hours in the middle of the night bent over the cot. I try to leave her for stretches at a time but she just doesn't fall back to sleep on her own, which is perhaps because I"m being inconsistent and should be doing proper CC?

Her room is right next to DD1 who also gets woken up and can't get back to sleep for ages. I'm spending hours at night ping-ponging between the two rooms. DH is kept awake by it too. I really hate leaving her to cry but I'm trying to see the bigger picture and I'm really feeling quite depressed with the lack of sleep. I'm freelance and am going back to office-based work this week so really need to not be completely exhausted. And even without that, the sleep deprivation makes me so grumpy with the girsl during the day.

So, basically, I need to do something. Have heard about PUPD but will that work with a 9MO or is it designed for younger babies. Is CC more likely to work and be quicker? I don't relish the idea of either but need to have a plan. Any advice or stories about what has worked for you would be v welcome. If something worked please could you tell me EXACTLY what you did!

Sorry, this is really long and garbled but I hope you get the picture.

Thanks so much

PS if you feel strongly that CC/sleep training is cruel/unacceptable etc I'd be really grateful if you didn't post. I'm feeling guilty enough about the whole thing as it is I just need a solution now.

[dycey]

Could it be teeth or illness? My ds needed frequent bf etc at night til 12 months but was only awake for long stretches when it was teeth.

When I was weaning off the night bf he stayed awake if I was near but went to sleep if I departed - with a bit of a howl but he would settle. Sorry not much help. What is yr babys sleep history, ad it were?

Much much sympathy. It is truly awful being sleep deprived. Don't feel too guilty if you do sleep train. Sometimes you gave to make choices for the greater family not just the baby. It fades from memory!

[urbanewarrior]

sounds exhausting - you poor thing. Might be a cop-out but if hairdryer works have you tried this? Worked for my DD - good to get her off to sleep on her own to start off with and then used it in the night when she woke up. She stopped needing after a while.

Whatever you decided to do, I think it's much easier if you start when you're not absolutely shattered. Can you get help for one night so you get some rest and then will be able to have a plan and stick to it?

Best of luck

[PacificDogwood]

There is a well recognised 9 month sleep regression to consider as well.

I have recently attended a (NHS) sleep clinic with DS4 because things were just bad beyond a joke - the main 2 things I took away from there was to separate feeding from bed time ie put baby into cot wide awake and let him self-settle, and to concentrate on getting bedtime to work and only then deal with nighttime wakenings. For us this means I continue to co-sleep with him or feed to sleep in the middle of the night, but I now feed him first before I zip him into his sleepsack with lights still, put him into his cot and the only then switch light off. This has worked really quickly to get him to go to sleep by himself - night wakenings however....

I think what will ultimately work really depends on the baby. And the parent . We did CC with DS1 when he was 7 months old and it worked within 2 nights. I tried with DS4 and he just screamed and screamed and screamed - record stands at 2 1/2 hrs .. And yes, I do feel guitly about that now, but was totally on my knees at the time.

In the meantime do whatever you have to to maximise sleep for all.

I also liked this site, there is lots of helpful advice/explanation on it for free and I have felt the need to order anything. The language/feel is a bit American IYKWIM, but the advice seems to be sound to me.

And keep chanting: this too shall pass, this too shall pass, this too shall pass....

[aliceinlalaland]

sorry for posting and disappearing. Been out at a family do. Ladies, you are all wonderful. I really appreciate your responses.

Re her sleep history. Started sleeping through from about 4.5 months so pretty good really (before that it was v haphazard but she just suddenly started sleeping for a v long stretch at night, which she hadn't done before). She's always woken at night with colds etc but generally gone back down with a bit of rocking, shhing, hairdryer noise etc so this being awake for hours at a time is new. She goes to sleep quite happily at bedtime, after a bottle but often awake.

dycey - it could be teething but she's got 6 teeth now and it hasn't kept her awake for hours at a time before now. She's had a whole load of teeth all at once. I've been giving her calpol or calprofen before bed but maybe I should give her an extra dose if she wakes in the night?

urbane - thanks v much for that link. I will definitely be giving that a go

pacific - DS4... respect!! V helpful hearing about your experience. DD2 falls asleep fine at bedtime and also for daytime naps (well, sometimes there's a bit of resistance and we use the hairdryer but for the most part...) I'll have a look at that site now.

THanks again

[PacificDogwood]

Sounds like 9 month sleep regression to me with
the history you are describing. She sounds like she used to sleep far better than my DS ever did.... .

[PacificDogwood]

...oh, and apparently they revert to how they used to sleep after the developmental stuff is over. again.

[aliceinlalaland]

Thanks pacific - I may have over-stated it as to how well DD slept before! I think I probably have rose-tinted spectacles when it comes to a month or so ago just because sleep is so rubbish now.

But I do hope you're right and that it's just this a phase. Still, even if that is the case it looks as if I've got another 5 weeks of this to look forward to

But I do realise I'm lucky to have had a baby who has slept through a fair few times. I guess I just feel now that I'm back almost to the newborn stage (in fact that was easier because although I'd be up multiple times a night she would tend to sleep in between). Slightly dreading tonight...

[NapWhatNap]

Hmm, am perhaps not the best person to advise as we've been having quite a rocky time of it with dd (coming up to 10 months) in the past few weeks. She had been sleeping through, and self settling like a dream, but has started waking in the evenings and nights (and totally resisting naps... groan). I reckon it's the sleep regression- it's got to be, surely?

PUPD had worked for us when we night weaned her at 7 months. But it seemed to me it was just getting her more worked up at this age. We have also been spending a lot of time leaning over the cot stroking her back.

The other day I went back to the Baby Whisperer book and discovered that for older babies, with PUPD it can be more effective to wait for them to stand up in the cot, before lying them down again. I tried this yesterday evening and she settled more quickly and had a more settled night (still woke up twice and needed our help, but wasn't up for 2 hours! So a major improvement).

So what I am doing is: standing by the cot, not saying a word, not touching her. When she pulls up to standing I just lay her down. This can go on for while! Eventually (as the Baby Whisperer says will happen) she starts just pulling up to sitting. I just lay her down again. Then she flails a bit. Then just sort of gives up and goes to sleep. It's actually quite amusing to watch! If she gets upset then I just lay a hand on her for a moment.

I suppose the idea is that they learn to settle themselves without a physical prop (eg stroking).

At no point (so far) has she been really upset.

This seems to be working for us, which is good because I'd find cc very hard to bear. Only problem is that DP hates to hear her cry at all, even if he's stood there, so when he goes in to her in the night he picks her up for a cuddle. Might have to just tell him to stick the ear plugs in and get on with it myself!

HTH

[aliceinlalaland]

Nap - aha, that sounds to me a lot like a plan In fact I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I'll do tonight. Thing is she does cry a lot lying down, rubbing her eyes and rolling around - what would you do in that situation? I'm just a bit worried I'd be there all night because basically she'd much rather sleep with my hand on her. Do you just retract hand when she goes quiet, put it back when she starts up again and keep going til eventually she falls asleep? I much prefer the sound of that to CC. Have you actually seen an improvement since trying that out? Thanks v much for the post btw

[NapWhatNap]

Well tbh I only started doing it last night! So I can't really say, but will report back tomorrow.

But it seems to be going well as a) she is settling herself back to sleep instead of being lulled to sleep as she has been recently and b) it has taken much less time to settle her- just a few mins max.

Last night for one waking she was doing the lying-down-rolling-round thing. I didn't want to leave her bawling down there so I just put my hand on her back gently (but didn't stroke her to sleep as I have been doing), ssshed for a few seconds, then carried on standing there. I think it's important to stay by the cot for a while even after they have quietened down (so says the Baby Whisperer!).

This evening she has woken up once and I was able to settle her within 2 minutes by lying her down then standing by her, and putting my hand on her back for a sec. Then she woke up again around an hour later and settled herself within a minute or two. Unheard of in recent weeks!

I think it might be working. Of course, she may just be saving her energy for later....

Good luck! Let us know how you get on.

[NapWhatNap]

Sorry didn't answer your question re hand on back. I'm following my instincts really- just laying my hand on when she gets worked up, and taking it away when she calms.

[aliceinlalaland]

That's so helpful, thank you - will report back tomorrow!! A few mins to settle her would be miraculous on current showing.

Thanks again - hope you get a good night's sleep and that the strategy continues to work!

[NapWhatNap]

Hi alice how did you get on?

We had a much better night than recent form. Settled to sleep well, woke twice in evening and settled quickly with the Put Down technique. Luckily DP is now on board too and didn't pick her up for cuddles. Then she slept from 10.45pm until 5.15am (she is always an early riser so that's not bad!).

I've decided to try it with naps today as they have been an utter mess in the past few weeks (all part of sleep regression apparently). We have just had a fairly horrid half hour during which I felt like a mean mummy. But she eventually settled herself to sleep. I told myself that it was meaner to let her skip a nap as she'd be so tired and grizzly. And I whispered "I love you" over and over under my breath, which helped. Am a total wimp!

Now let's see how long she stays asleep...

There is another thread called something like "self soothing", where someone gives some very excellent and detailed advice on how they helped their 9mo to sleep 11 hour stretches using a similar thing (but a bit more thought-through and structured than my approach!). I'd reccomend a look if you haven't already.

[aliceinlalaland]

Miraculously she slept through til about 5.45, then woke up and I was going to try the technique but she had a dirty nappy and a cough so once we'd done the nappy change I actually resorted to the hairdryer again to make her settle because it didn't quite feel like a night-time wake. But I used your technique for nap-time and it seems to have worked, she's still sleeping! I see what you mean about how it's actually quite funny watching the gradually fall asleep, DD almost fell asleep a couple of times then rolled over to check I was still there.

I do think last night's sleep-through was a fluke (and annoyingly i couldn't sleep because I've been so used to waking up multiple times). But definitely feel empowered now that I have a plan of some sort So thanks again, and will def have a look at that other thread

[NapWhatNap]

How's it going alice? Our lo slept through from 7pm til 5.30am without a peep last night, not even in the evening. Hasn't done this for weeks. Of course dp and I were awake at 4am worrying that she was ok! Then she has settled like a dream for her morning nap.
Things are looking up! (Though by saying that, have just cursed self, of course).

I know what you mean about early morning wakings. I intuitively know (or at least I think I do?!) that our dd would not settle when she wakes up at the arsecrack of dawn. The waking is different iyswim. The thought of doing sleep training with her at that time fills me with dread. Though would love to be able to stay in my bed until 6am at least!

[knickyknocks]

Just wanted to add something. We tried the PUPD method and really believe it works. It took several weeks of training our DD, but it's definitely worth it. Basically I think our DD just exhausted herself by standing up every time we laid her down. Eventually when she realised she wasn't getting any cuddles or eye contact she went to sleep.

She is now 14 months old, and following lots of early morning starts (5am!), she now sleeps 7pm to 6.15/6.45ish am. Glad to see the walking is tiring her out!

Guess I wanted to say you will get there in the end, and it's now lovely that every night when we put her to bed, she just rolls over without a fuss and goes to sleep.

Would def do PUPD method if we ever had another child.

[aliceinlalaland]

Hello both, sorry not checked in today until now. DD2 slept again last night, miraculous! But it doesn't mean I haven't properly tried out the NapWhatNap self-settling technique at night yet. I also can't help slightly freaking out and wanting to check her (but also not wanting to risk waking her because she's such a light sleeper). Unfortunately DD1's sleep has now gone haywire so I'm still knackered! But definitely progress in one area. So glad it's working for you. And many thanks for introducing me to the expression 'arsecrack of dawn' - greatly looking forward to deploying that one. Good luck tonight.

Knicky - thanks for your post. That's v reassuring and will be good to have another trick up my sleeve if it all goes pear-shaped again!

[aliceinlalaland]

Nap so I tried it last night when she woke up in the wee small hours and I think it worked! Took quite a long time but she did eventually go back to sleep and actually cried very little. She only pulled herself to sitting a couple of times so mostly it was just a question of standing by the cot and putting my hand on her occasionally. She's got a cough at the moment, which complicates things a little but it really did feel as if your method was working. And it's far, far preferable to CC for me at least

[skippingturtle]

Ooh, can I join in please?

DD is 6 months, so younger than your DCs, but we've been using PUPD, with greater or lesser degrees of success. She also wakes really early (5.30 on a bad day).

Did you find that putting her down after picking her up makes things worse? Sometimes our LO gets furious!

How important is it that they go into bed awake, so you think? DD dozes off during her last feed so we're unintentionally putting her in her cot fed to sleep.

[NapWhatNap]

alice, glad you are making progress! Things still seem to be on the up here too. Had one wake up last night and I only had to lay her down once, then she burrowed around a bit and fell asleep.

skippingturtle I've always found PUPD effective. At your lo's age it's different in that you pick them up instead of just doing what is essentially PD not PUPD with an older baby. Yes this did used to make dd more cross, but when we persevered it did work. As the Baby Whisperer says of this technique, 'the darkest hour is just before dawn'.

[NapWhatNap]

ps my dd sometimes goes to bed asleep, sometimes awake. She does tend to wake up 45 mins later if she goes down asleep, so I usually talk to her gently to wake her up slightly if she drops off during her feed.

[aliceinlalaland]

Nap - quick question. How long after she's gone quiet do you leave her room? (I've been waiting for ages because i think she often quietens down but lies awake for ages and I don't want to risk starting from scratch by moving when she's not properly settled?

Sounds like you're doing amazingly well BTW

Greetings skippingturtle!

[NapWhatNap]

Haha thanks alice- didn't feel entirely successful at 4.45am this morning (beyond the arsecrack of dawn, I think you'll agree!) when madame decided to wake for the day. Now we seem to have sorted nights (for now) and we're just back to the old early rising. Gah...

Re how long to stay in room, I've been staying for a couple of minutes until I hear her breathing slow down properly. I'm a tad concerned that she'll get used to falling asleep with one of us in the room, but then she self settles at bedtime and a few times a night so perhaps I shouldn't stress too much. I have been standing progressively further away from her cot each time I do PD. Eventually I hope to reach the dizzy heights of the bedroom door before she drifts off.

God, what have I become?!

[skippingturtle]

Hello alice! Nap, that's interesting what you say about your DD waking up 45 mins later if she goes down asleep, that happens to DD with naps.

Will persevere with PUPD even though DD's eyes start glowing red and steam comes out of her ears.

Blimey, they're mysterious creatures, aren't they?

[curlyLJ]

Hi, I wonder if I could join you? I have been lurking on this thread with interest as I have a 9mo DD whose sleep is driving me potty!

She was a great sleeper from 8w - 4 months, then it went to pot but got better again (4m sleep regression) and then it went to pot again - but worse - about 5 weeks ago and I am desperate for some decent sleep...

I think we got back into the habit (somewhere along the line) of helping her too much to get to sleep - rocking etc, so on the basis of what you ladies have been saying, for the last few nights I have tried your tip of doing kind of PU/PD but without the PU and she has been going to sleep a bit better. I took about 30mins the first night and 20 last night and tonight.

The first night had great results and she slept for a longer stretch and also I also managed to re-settle her in the cot (have been bringing her in with me/us to try and get some sleep) until 5.30am. Last night however was a different story...she needed re-settling after 45 mins and then she woke at 10.30 and wouldn't re-settle. I fed her (even though I don't beleive she needed it) but although I managed to get her back to sleep (using the same PD method) she woke again after about 10 mins. This happened a few times and then I gave up and brought her in to me where she remained unsettled all night
I have no idea what was wrong - she doesn't appear to be actively teething or anything. It always starts about the time I want to go to sleep myself

I just hope that sheer perseverence is oing to pay off because I really really need my bed back, and some sleep...