What about genuine safeguarding concerns?

[Universitychallenging]

Hq. I've seen a couple of posts in the last few days where there have been clear safeguarding concerns about children involved. Emotional abuse / neglect / physical abuse.

Can you guys as HQ do anything, or would you ever report a post on here to SS using the IP address or should we as a community if there is identifying information ?

Or should the threads be removed on the grounds that we can't do anything and therefore they are jus upsetting people to feel so powerless?

[ImsorryTommy]

A lot of them will be made up. If they're not, you can't run an anonymous forum where people might get reported to SS when asking for advice. It wouldn't work.

[Universitychallenging]

I'm just concerned over the last couple of days about posters kids and it seems wrong to me that things are posted that get others concerned and yet there is nothing we can do.

Perhaps it's just a sign that I care too much

[WorraLiberty]

I think it would put a lot of people off of asking for help, if they thought there was even the slightest chance of being reported to SS.

Sometimes people need to come here to talk things over and during that process, they can sometimes realise they need RL help.

It's then up to them whether they choose to seek it or not, but unless someone openly admits to beating or starving their children, I don't think the threads should be removed.

We all have a choice in how involved we get with the anonymous posts here.

[Universitychallenging]

That's true worra. The one things morning was an admitting to beating child one - although it's gone as a PBP

[WorraLiberty]

Yeah that one was awful and deserved to go anyway.

[Universitychallenging]

I know and agree but I just wondered if hq would report it but I suppose it would be difficult.

I think I'm too soft. Or else my job makes me too aware of safeguarding concerns.

[WorraLiberty]

I think another massive headache where HQ are concerned, would be that at the moment, 'Safeguarding' seems to have become a very popular buzzword on MN.

It's often used by people who don't really appear to know what it means, so it's becoming really overused in a lot of cases.

I think if people thought there was any chance of HQ reporting people to SS, there would be a huge increase in the "OMG, CALL SOCIAL SERVICES NOW!!!" type of posts for something fairly innocuous.

Probably based on, "Trust your gut instinct" from some people who tend to over react to the slightest thing, and report every thread 'just in case'.

Thus massively increasing HQ's workload.

[Universitychallenging]

Possibly worra but that's not what I was talking about.

I was talking about clear safeguarding concerns and a thread with a picture of a child who had been hit with a coat hanger.

[ImsorryTommy]

Which was made up by a PBP.

[Universitychallenging]

Yes. I know that about that specific one. I was asking more in general if hq ever got involved.

[ImsorryTommy]

Not to my knowledge no. And I don't think they should.

[WorraLiberty]

I'm not very techy, but I'm pretty sure HQ couldn't trace an exact address from an IP. I think it's just the area?

[WannaBe]

No and neither should they ever get involved.

For a start there is A, no way of knowing whether the poster is real, B, no way of knowing who the poster is, i.e. You might be able to trace through an IP address however people posting from e.g. Other people's houses while on mobiles/tablets/posting from the train/anywhere else makes it impossible to detect and that's before you get to those who use dynamic IP's so are not traceable purely by the power of the likes of MN.

Plus it's a slippery slope. If an expectation arises for people to report "safeguarding" concerns with regard to children then it's only a matter of time before posters start reporting or expecting reports of women who are in DV situations and getting the police involved, etc etc.

And what to one is a safeguarding concern is normal parenting to another, actual abuse situations not withstanding.

[Universitychallenging]

The police can Worra And in a situation where, for example, a child is being beaten with an implement and those pics put online then I think they would be interested (I do know that poster was a pbp)

[Universitychallenging]

Wannabe I'm talking about where there is a child being beaten with an implement such that a mark is still extant 2+ hours later.

That is clear physical abuse.

[WannaBe]

But it wasn't real so you can't bring that kind of situation up as an example, because it's not an example of a genuine safeguarding concern.

[WorraLiberty]

Ok if this is a TAAT, then I would agree that any photo put up of a child apparently being abused, should be reported to the police (although I'm sure they wouldn't be able to trace the person really).

But other than that, no I don't agree because it would probably put a lot of people off of posting.

Take for example a woman posting here, asking whether we thought her husband was emotionally abusing/neglecting their child?

I'm sure they'd be too scared if they thought SS would get involved.

[Universitychallenging]

But there are people who post similar which are real.

I suppose I'm wondering if hq could do the same as they do when a poster is reported for threatening suicide - use their own judgement and if they feel it's serious remove the thread even?

[WorraLiberty]

An no I don't think the police can necessarily trace a poster's exact address through their IP, without extensively using all their resources and I doubt they'd do that because some people on MN think a child may be being emotionally abused or neglected.

As a PP said, one person's neglect/emotional abuse is another person's parenting.

I've seen tons of "CALL SS NOW" because they've witnessed someone swearing at or in front of a child for example.

Horrible parenting, but nothing the police would spend hours or possibly days trying to trace.

[WannaBe]

Plus posters on MN are not rational. So while you might report a post which shows a picture of a child having been beaten (assuming someone actually ever uploaded,) there would be posters who reported a post where e.g. The child had seen porn on the laptop, or posts where an OP posts that her child showed another child his willie in the playground and will assume he's being abused, etc.

And then when MN fail to act there will be the inevitable "I hope MN HQ can sleep at night because there is a child being abused/they're failing to take safeguarding seriously,"

You have to ask what you want MN to be. Do you want it to be a talk forum which is what it is at the moment? Or something more where your every move, your every post is policed. After all if MN are obliged to report concerns with regard to children they should also report concerns with regard to women who are in abusive relationships, since those may affect the children as well. And what about posts where a poster drinks too much and needs support to quit... safeguarding concern right there....

[Universitychallenging]

But we let HQ make all kinds of decisions about what stays as it is. Why is this different?

[WorraLiberty]

I completely agree WannaBe

It's different because sending the Police or SS to someone's house, is a million miles away from deleting a thread.

[Universitychallenging]

Ok. So. Should hq auromativally delete a thread where there are clear safeguarding concerns?

[WorraLiberty]

No I don't think they should.

Especially if the OP is looking for advice. Why would they?

[WannaBe]

No. Define "clear safeguarding concerns."

Suicide threads are a different matter because in reality MN is not the place to come to claim that you're going to commit suicide tonight. Nobody here is qualified to help someone in that situation and it's possible to do far more damage than good in that instance. Anyone wanting to commit suicide needs professional help not to be saved by the self-proclaimed rescuers of mumsnet.

Safeguarding is subjective however as what to one is a serious issue is not to someone else. So someone posting that they feel a child is genuinely at risk may post here only to be told that many other parents do exactly the same thing and there is no issue, for instance.

A post with a picture of a child which has been beaten is almost certainly a troll and would be removed anyway. In my ten years plus on mn there has never been a thread where someone has posted something quite that shocking which has turned out to be genuine.