Mixed ability teaching vs sets

[redskybynight]

Just wondered about people's opinions / experiences of mixed ability teaching versus using sets at secondary level. Our catchment secondary where DS (currently Y6) will likely go next year does not set at all except for maths. Our 2nd closest secondary (that'll be the one shouting about its great results) sets in everything from day 1.

Having gone to a selective school myself I'm having a bit of a wobble about how mixed ability teaching (and this is a genuine range of abilities comp, not MC leafy enclave) will pan out. Reassurance (or otherwise, I'd rather know the worst!)?

[TalkinPeace]

It depends on the individual subject and how the class planning is done.
Maths is generally set first because the ability range is the widest
other stuff can safely (and productively) be taught mixed ability to year 11

[Killasandra]

Yes. English and the humanities are better mixed.

Maths is better set.

Science I'm not sure about.

[ttlshiwwya]

My DCs school is similar in only setting for maths in Y7 however they set for other subjects in Y8 (MFLs and science) and some other subjects in Y9. However the setting is quite fluid and because of space the whole year is effectively split into two so always 2 top sets etc. It worried me before my DS1 started but my worries were unfounded. However since my DCs all play a musical instrument and the school puts all such children in one of 2 classes to facilitate band practise then they are effectively partially streamed (some in the know make their kid take up an instrument at primary for this reason). My DCs have made a wider circle of friends than they would have had and I feel my DD in particular has actually benefited confidence wise. The only time I had an issue was in physics for my DS1 who found the pace too slow but this was sorted out quickly. He was able to switch classes to one that suited hin better ( physics is his thing).

[ttlshiwwya]

Sorry posted too soon. Meant to add that I was so worried when my first was due to start that I asked the primary head for advice and she showed me some statistics which showed that results at Y11/12 for children leaving primary at the same level as my DS1 were very similar between the schools I was looking at.

[paddyclampo]

I think setting is better. Mixed ability for Maths is a complete no-no.

[BackforGood]

I'm a fan of pupils being taught alongside other pupils of roughly the same ability levels - ie, setting.
I speak both from being a teacher, and working with children with special needs, and being the parent of dds who have to waste their time, week in, week out, sitting through lessons (in Yr8) filled with work they did in Yr4 .
My dds school must be the only school in the country not to set for maths.

[TheFallenMadonna]

I teach science and like mixed ability in KS3. I find differentiating forces me to consider individuals...

[Killasandra]

In my DDs KS3 science class some of the class have foundation textbooks and some have higher.

But they both have the same topics in them.

And the teacher actually asked DD which book she wanted, as she was borderline. DD chose the higher textbook.

Maybe if it had been set she wouldn't have had that option.

[Killasandra]

OP - what are your DSs predicted SATs grades? Because it does make a difference to the question.

[mummytime]

I'd rather mixed ability, and definitely over setting from day 1. It takes time to get to know pupils and their true abilities. There is often a big change in who is "achieving highly" between primary and secondary. It can be because different schools spoon feed/fiddle results/whatever, it can be that some pupils blossom with harder concepts but in others the gaps are exposed, or...

[angelicjen]

Setting is lovely if you're in the top, supportive if you're at the bottom and a potential nightmare in the middle.

[Killasandra]

Not sure it's always supportive at the bottom.

In fact I'm absolutely sure it's not good for most.

There are so many reasons for pupils to not achieve at school. Many (Most?) of the bottom set pupils don't have academic problems, they have other problems.

[redskybynight]

Interesting mixed range of opinions - thank you! DS is currently working at Level 5A in maths and 5A in reading and likely to take the Level 6 papers in both (I would be surprised if he got Level 6 though). However he is only working at 3A in writing - as you can guess his school is throwing everything at him to get him to a Level 4 as he's not a child they want to be missing off their "getting to L4" stats! So I would say he is a child that is doing well but not one of the real geniuses iyswim (in his genuinely mixed ability primary, he's not the child you would pick out as a high attaining child as ability wise he is in the group behind the high achievers if this makes sense ...)

Where this would put him if he did go to a school that set I have no idea!

Interested in other experiences, particularly if you have an (odd) child like mine!

[LooseAtTheSeams]

Y7 set for some subjects after first half term at DS school but humanities, arts etc are mixed and it works fine. The setting is reviewed every half term. I do agree with setting for maths as long as each group is getting the support it needs, but notice where subjects aren't set, this doesn't seem to cause any issues at all, including in history and geography.

[TheWordFactory]

Setting. All day everyday.

In as many subjects as possible. And early...

[bruffin]

DCs school set for everything from day one, based on CATs (july schools transfer day) and SATs and primary school advice. It worked well for my dcs except maybe MFL for ds who is dyslexic. There was high expectations but that was soon sorted once we spoke to SEN.

[portico]

In an ideal world all classes should be settled. You wouldn't want your clever kids slowed down in a mixed ability class. In reality there are not enough teachers, and it's is not practical to set all subjects. I would set Eng, Maths, Sciences and Languages.

[redskybynight]

Those who prefer mixed ability in English/Humanities - why is this?

DS's "school to be" does roughly set for maths (it puts the top third in higher groups), and as it timetables triple science and double science separately, I guess that is setting of a sort for Science once they get to KS4. No other setting anywhere.

[ReallyTired]

All the high achieving countries like Finland, Korea or singapore do not have ablity setting. My son's secondary school is mostly mixed ablity in year 7 and has excellent results. Now that my son is in year 8 he is settled for maths, science, MFL and mixed ablity for everything else.

I think that mixed ablity teaching works if all the children can read. I don't think it works to have a child on the p scales (children with severe learning difficulties who are below level 1 national curriculum) with a child who is level 7.

I don't agree with setting children on the basis a CATS test. That seems to be to be the eleven plus. I feel children should be set according to their ablity in a particular subject.

[mummytime]

There is research that shows that mixed ability teaching in Maths, if done correctly can boost the results of all pupils.
Lots of other countries do not set, and expect all pupils to achieve highly. they tend to be countries towards the top of international tests.

(Of course there are some reservations about this, as some even in those countries wouldn't be in main stream schools.)

[portico]

I have long been a detractor of hope Eng and Maths is taught in this country. For 8 years I have used Singaporean books on my children. Singaporeans are rote learners and great at the PISA tests. UK is much, much hIgher on the TIMMS tests where problem solving is concerned. South Korea, India, Hong Kong, Shanghaii are all rote learners who cannot think out of the box. Here, we just need a smaller emphasis on rote on arithmetic, tabes and grammar. Everything else is fine. Ps, far eastern countries do better because of an out of school hours tutor culture, and they value education a lot more there. Take away the tuition, the kids there would not score so highly in the PISA tests.

[Takver]

I'd say the problem with setting in maths is that it can be a substitute for differentiation within a class (just looking at dd's experience plus comments I've heard from other parents). I guess if you have a wider level of prior achievement, teachers have no option but to differentiate. Should imagine it's a lot of work, though!

[bruffin]

I don't agree with setting children on the basis a CATS test.

Worked brilliantly for DS who has high CAT scores but dyslexic. He was put in top sets despite scraping a level 4 for English. His English teacher said he was in the right set because of his comprehension skills.

The Finnish education system is seriously over rated. I worked for the biggest Finnish employer for 6 years and found them unable to multitask or think out of the box. Excellent at their own very narrow fields but that was it, given anything to do that was out of the norm and it would be panic stations.

[ReallyTired]

Bruffin, do you think it would have harmed your child to have been in a mixed ablity set for English? If a dyslexic child cannot write well then they need help regardless of intelligence. Attainment in a subject should dictate which set a child is put in. Does it make sense to put a level 6 child who has bombed out in their CATS in the bottom set due to nerves?

People want the best for their children. It is nice having your child in top sets. However mistakes with rigid setting can have significant consequences. I feel it's better for teachers to meet the children and give everyone a chance.

There is no substitute for professional judgement.