Independent London day schools or state comprehensive? DH and I can't agree.

[Chocfinger]

I didn't grow up in the UK and with the exception of two London day schools I am struggling to see where I would get value for money for an eye watering outlay of fees which would involve very big sacrifices for our family. We have had a good experience at our local primary and have supplemented with tutoring when needed, the local comprehensives are on the 'up' and are becoming increasingly popular, although just under half of kids go independent from our primary. DH considers DD will receive a significantly better education with hugely more opportunities at one of the top London independents. How on earth can I compare the quality and breadth of education when one sector creams off the brightest students, surely most of those kids would get As wherever they are? Perhaps teachers have far more freedom in their approach to lessons at an independent? Finding this a hugely loaded debate as of course I want the very best for my child but also see huge value in mixing with a broader range of kids and not counting every penny. I have seen many, many schools and still feel no closer! Further DH is increasingly frustrated that I am not on the same page as him, ready to downsize our house and live off baked beans. Any pearls of wisdom?!

[meditrina]

You can't generalise by sector (grammar schools and the desirable comprehensive play their part in 'creaming off' too).

I think you need to look at the specific schools you are interested in (and at which you stand a chance of getting a place). Then ask yourself which do you like, and why?

Has your DH been round any of the state schools you live close to?

[Chocfinger]

Thank you, we have got ourselves into such worry about it! We start the rounds of the state options tomorrow. Luckily we seem to have three pretty good bets as two are church based and helpfully- from a financial point of view- DD has not been overly keen on 4/5 independents we have seen, basically she wishes she could just take her lovely class at primary school with her!

[HolidayPackingIsHardWork]

In our area, the Independent schools a clearly better than the state options available to us as non-church goers.

I think you have to judge the specific schools available to you and how they would suit your dd or not.

[Shootingatpigeons]

Having made that decision seven years ago I have the benefit of experience and if the high attainers at your local state comprehensives are getting good GCSE results and university places then this is a decision about where your DD will be happiest rather than about what value the school will add. My DDs' state school peers are all going to the Universities you would expect, including the top ones. However you are lucky enough to have a choice and you will find as you go round the schools that you and your DD will get a feeling about where feels right for your DD, where she will be happiest, based on all sorts of factors, location, facilities, ethos etc. the only factor I would discount is where her friends go, she will make more. Trust your instinct.

In the end for my DDs that choice was for Independent schools but I do not think they would have done worse in our outstanding local comprehensive (had they got a place which they didn't), if anything I would question why the results at their very selective London Day School are not better. It just meant they had a different school experience. And locally there are less selective independent schools that get worse results than the local comprehensives but that is not because bright pupils who go there are not enabled to do well, simply that they do not tend to choose to go there and they serve a particular niche eg parents seeking a faith education.

[DarkBlueEyes]

It's very stressful chocfinger, I agree . The thing I am trying to keep uppermost in my mind is that my daughter, and yours too, would do very well in any school they go to. Too much choice can be a bad thing, for sure. If it would be private school on,y if you downsize and seriously economise then in your situation it probably isn't really worth it. You have to live a life you love at the same time as educating your children. Are you off to RR this morning? I'd say in your situation this potentially would be an excellent option which might give you the best of both worlds. I feel myself slipping into decision paralysis if you care to join me! Over a glass of wine of course....

Ps this is all written because I think I know who you are, of not then please ignore me!

[crazymum53]

You don't have to make up your mind yet. You can apply to both state schools and private. If affordability is an issue, I would ask about scholarships and bursaries.
Many parents would delay making a final decision until they see which secondary school they are allocated or after the results of entrance tests etc.
If there is a significant chance you may not meet the criteria for your preferred state school (s) it would be useful to have an independent school place as a back-up option.

[tess73]

you really can't compare sectors with each other, just individual schools vs another.
DD1 wants co-ed and i think this suits her - therefore we have chosen to go independent as this is the best co-ed school available to her
DD2 however i think will want all girls. We have a great all girls state school we are just in catchment for, if this is still the case she will go there.

[tess73]

crazymum53 - i would be wary of going for private independent in (SW) London as a back up. You have to do a lot of prep to have a good chance at getting in to the selective ones from a state school. if the kids get in they usually then want to go, it's their "prize" for their hard work. Some people do them just as a back up with little prep but you are definitely taking your chances then.
Obviously this doesn't apply to the less academic/less selective schools.

[YakInAMac]

"one sector creams off the brightest students, "

Only those brightest students who come from the 7% that can choose/ afford private ed. And remember that many choose private ed precisely because they believe it provides a safety net for students who are NOT the brightest, who would do well anywhere.

[outtolunchagain]

In London though that percentage is more like 25%

I think others are right it is much more about individual schools , one extra factor to bear in mind though is the massive change in exam systms that your dd will be in the middle of , state schools will largely have to go with this at the governments timetable, many independents will have more flexibility over changes for example by sticking with IGSE for the first couple of yours whilst things bed down .

[Dad164]

The ONLY question is, of all the schools you have seen, visited, spoken to parents, teachers and pupils of, which ones would your child be happy at.

Those schools (public, private, co-ed, church, whatever) are the ones you should be having a debate about. You should not be having a debate about anything other than "where will they be happiest and do best". This isn't a political decision.

The state/private debate is one that exists between you and your partner and, in my view, should be discounted by both of you. It should not be a debate about "I want this for my child" or "I don't want my child to be surrounded by toffs/plebs [delete as appropriate]".

[ChickenFajitaAndNachos]

How much penny pinching would there be if you choose private education? Would it really involve baked beans or would it be loss of a ski holiday type thing?

[YakInAMac]

Please quote me the stats that demonstrate that in London 25% of the brightest students attend private schools.

[ChocolateWombat]

I don't think that is what the 25% referred to. I think they meant that 25% go private.
Therefore there are 75% of children remaining....some of whom will be very bright.....meaning that ALL of the cleverest are not creamed off. So, a Comp can reasonably have lots of bright children who are as bright as, or brighter than many in the independent schools.

The 'creaming off' issue is more relevant in Grammar school areas, especially those where they are non-super selective, because there, the top 25 to 30% go the the Grammars, leaving the other 70% to go the schools which really do us have the 'top end'. Comprehensives, in areas where there are independents will still have top end students.
The thing to look at with the Comps in your areal, is how many academic children they have in them, as Comps vary wildly. Look to see the percentages gaining A/A at GCSE, a to B at A level and the no.s going to top universities. If the info is not available on the website, email in and ask for that exact info. Then you can see if your child (assuming you think they are academic themselves) will find a decent sized cohort of similar ability and be able to thrive. If so, the Comp can deliver great results for her too. If no-one or very few get the top grades, then perhaps the independents are more worth considering.

[outtolunchagain]

Yes chocolate wombat that is what I meant not that 25% of the brightest just 25% of the whole

[YakInAMac]

I am sure there are areas and boroughs with a v high % of children going to private school, but from DC primary 1 child went on to an independent secondary, and know 1 family with children in private school.

And I know 3 children achieving L8 maths at the beginning of Y 8, 2 of them from refugee families.

London includes Hackney, Newham, Tower Hamlets, Barking and Dagenham....

Anyway, OP, you just can't generalise. And even if a proportion of bright kids are creamed off by private schooling or super selectives, the remaining very bright kids in a good comp still do as well individually if the school is a good one. There are just fewer to bring the overall average up.

[emberSept]

It's a hard decision. I teach in the state sector and have a child in an independent school. I truly see the benefits of both and my main reason for the decision for dd is based upon the kind of person she is and the schooling available to us in this area.
As others have said, you can't judge by sector, only by individual schools. It very much depends on your child, the sacrifice you are willing to make, and what is available to you.

[WFMum]

Would your child be happy in a state school if you got a tutor to support them in the areas where they needed help. That way you get to stay put and raise their standards.

[TreadSoftlyOnMyDreams]

DH considers DD will receive a significantly better education with hugely more opportunities at one of the top London independents
Specifically in what? Is she very bright, gifted or very able in specific subject areas, music or sport, is she shy and would she benefit from smaller classes or a single sex school.
Or is she simply a relatively bright, well-rounded PFB?

What do the comprehensives currently lack? How do they manage bright pupils? How do they discipline and motivate their pupils?

Private fees are eyewatering. How will your DH respond if she can't keep up or has average results. It is YOUR choice as parents to send her private, and to make that sacrifice not something to be thrown back at her.

[chococupcakes]

Recently moved my dd from a high achieving state to an Independent. Note however, she was not in what I believe to be in the right set for her ability. This too may very well have a bearing on her experience.

Yes, it's wrong to generaliae and one can only go by their own experience. This has been hers. Note, I am merely the messenger, so don't shoot me:

The divide: The gaping difference between the two she says, is so huge, you simply cannot compare the two. She says it's like being entered into a completely different world.


Quality of teaching: These teachers are engaging and don't just stand in front of the class droning on. They're just much more exciting. Plus the homework just feels more purposeful, she says. It solidifies what you know then extends your knowledge further.

There is twice as much homework, I should add here, but she doesn't bat at eyelid. Just says she loves it.

I appreciate too the teachers may not be be better qualified, I don't know, as I've not seen their qualifications, they may very well just have a better environment to do their job. I too know exceptional teachers in the state sector. My cousin is a headmistress in a challenging state school and has turned it around. Please remember, all I am doing is reciting my child's words.

Environment: All the children are on the same page - there to learn. There are no disruptions she says. The teacher doesn't have to spend half the lesson trying to keep the class quiet. She feels at home here and said she didn't realise until now there were other children like her who just wanted to buckle down and learn. The ethnic mix here is fantastic too and friends were made immediately.

Extra Support: They run clinics during school time, flocked with specialist teachers and sixth former's to give extra help.

Support staff: Unlike DD's old school, the support staff are qualified in the area they're teaching in. When the children ask a question therefore, it avoids replies like, 'I don't know, this is Maths, I teach geography! Which was always the case beforehand.

From the daily feedback I get of absolutely loving it, I think this. The fees for this school is just under £20K a year. It's appalling that people who do not have that kind of money miss out on this. I do get help, but not all of it. In truth, I do not know where the money will come from to truly fund it all. Cutback is an understatement. The difference is embarrassing, disgusting and unfair.

What do you do however, when you see a 360 degree turnaround in your child?

On a positive note, there is another state school not far away I would have considered had my child not got a place here, who with the extra funding, have small class sizes and have been achieving some great results. That did however, take extra funding.

I am not sure if my child will leave with a string of A's and A*'s. I just know from this starting point, if she has the ability, she will achieve it. In the last school, maybe she would have, maybe she wouldn't. Just felt it would have been more pot luck. As time went on she began to tire of the constant distractions and was bored.

In my extended family too, yes there has been exceptions, however those who went private have generally achieved more. Where they any smarter??? I don't think so. Given the right factors and environment, I think most can achieve. Still we'll see. The fact is she's just so much happier, I at last have peace.

[HolidayPackingIsHardWork]

I'm glad your daughter is thriving chococupcakes. It sounds like a lovely school.

[chococupcakes]

Thanks so much Holiday. It has been a long journey:)

[Chocfinger]

Thank you all very much indeed for all the useful advice and insights. Such a difficult decision, I think we (well at least this week!) will apply to a lovely new state school - DD would be their third year. We saw it on the weekend and thought it very nurturing and also full of engaged and exciting teachers- it's an easy journey too with a big emphasis on music, art and sport. The only drawback is the lack of results so it's a leap of faith really although all the evidence definitely points in the right direction. Given our successful visit and the fact that we will almost certainly get a place, we will do a minimal number of independent applications- at this point just LEH (yet to see Putney, NHE and KGS) as my sporty DD loved it and I could see where the fees were going. I wonder, can those of you with older children reassure me (or not!) that places do occasionally come up at the selective independents so that if things didn't go well at the state school we liked so much there might still exist the possibility of moving schools later? We are based in SW London in a transient area so that I presume many schools around here have children moving abroad or back to UK etc. Would the applicant have a better chance or worse chance if they passed the schools 11+ but didn't take up the place?

[PurpleNotebook]

Bump. So Chocfinger, 8 years on, what did you decide - and was it the right decision?

Really interested in how it played out for you as you seem like a very interesting choice. Private school results this Friday, and then March 1st for state, a lot of nervous parents around. Kids not so nervous...