# Talk

## Understanding expected, good & outstanding progress ...

(20 Posts)
brambledscrains Thu 20-Nov-14 09:00:50

I'm trying to get my head round this & getting brain ache.

If a child ended yr 1 with a 2a, 3c or 3b this is well aboved the expected progress for the first year on the NC. Does this change the progress expected for yr 2 & if so, by how much?

What would expected, good & outstanding progress look like at the end of year 2 for a child with these levels at the end of year 1?

Thanks in advance to anyone that can help me understand.

PastSellByDate Thu 20-Nov-14 10:52:36

Hi brambled:

MN has information on NC Levels and progress through them on their Education Resources page: start here: www.mumsnet.com/learning/assessment/national-curriculum-levels & then go to related pages in blue box on left.

HTH

brambledscrains Thu 20-Nov-14 12:02:28

Hi & thank you - I understand expected progress, it's more to do with the point score system & whether a child that makes well over expected progress in yr 1 is expected to make similar / equivalent progress in yr 2. Er that's a lot of expecteds, sorry, but I'm hoping someone understands what I'm trying to get at???

brambledscrains Thu 20-Nov-14 12:04:43

Sorry I'm being really inarticulate - if a child reaches say 19 on the point score system in year 1 is 4.5 or 5 points progress still considered outstanding in year 2?

sunnyrosegarden Thu 20-Nov-14 14:10:42

I THINK that it's measured across key stages. So, the school aim for a certain number if points during key stage 1, and again in keystage 2. It is recognised that children don't learn in straight lines of progress.

Ofsted were most concerned about the progress from years 3 to 6 in our school.

sunnyrosegarden Thu 20-Nov-14 14:12:33

And, they didn't look at individual years other than to see if we were on track.

PastSellByDate Thu 20-Nov-14 14:23:44

Hi brambled:

I'm just a Mum so I'm afraid I don't really know how the point scoring system works.

This document shows expected points in relation to NC Levels & sub-levels: www.sppcs.org.uk/Documents/What%20is%20Standard%20Progress.pdf

I think you do have to be a bit wary that there is a certain amount of 'gaming' in this system (and yes I'm sure the usual teachers will get on to say no there isn't - what I'd say is in better schools there isn't - but it does clearly go on - not just my experience - but the yearly MN feeds - why is my child now NC L2c when they were rated 2b at the end of last year). My understanding is teachers are given targets for pupil achievement (usually 2 sub-levels in KS1 and 1.5 sub-levels in KS2) and will work to that - so their attention might shift to pupils struggling to meet floor target at end Y2/ struggling to meet individual expected progress targets - rather than a pupil clearly doing well.

So as a parent - rather than worrying about point scores - I'd be more concerned to understand that work is improving from previous years. Yes, the pace in KS2 is somewhat slower than KS1 - but nonetheless, staying on the same NC Level all year long (same reading band level/ same type of maths homework) may indicate problems and does necessitate parental and teacher attention.

Schools now have to demonstrate that low/ middle/ high achieving pupils are progressing appropriately - so my advice is look at those stats for end KS2 on School Performance tables: www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/

HTH

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Thu 20-Nov-14 17:10:31

I think you may have confused attainment and progress a little. 2a/3c/3b is the level of attainment reached but whether that represents good progress in year 1 will depend on the starting point of the child in question.
Expected progress is 3 sublevels

RafaIsTheKingOfClay Thu 20-Nov-14 17:18:50

Sorry posted too soon. I'm fighting with the mobile site.

Expected progress in ks1 is 3 sublevels, which would be counted from level at the end of the previous year. Doesn't matter whether you are 1a, 3a or how many sublevels progress you made the previous year the number of sublevels you need for expected progress is still the same.

Since levels have been scrspped, this is probably nit going to be much use.

simbacatlivesagain Thu 20-Nov-14 17:44:38

Expected progress in KS1 is not 3 sub levels. Expected progress is that more children will be in line with age related expectations at the end of KS1 than at the end of EYFS. This has always happened nationally regardless of the many changes to EYFS assessment and GLD etc . This is an Ofsted expectation of expected progress but does broadly align with what happens across the national data set- at pupil level there will be variance even for pupils with no additional needs etc. Boys and summer born attainment is stronger at KS1 than EYFS as is children with EAL- so a child from these groups might be expected to make more progress comparatively.

So if a child gets the expected level at EYFS typically (and there is no research at all about this) if they were re-assessed at the start of Y1 against the old NC levels they would typically be a L1c (possibly higher in writing-maybe 1 c or lb depending on their actual strengths in writing)

1c is 7 points. They need to get to at least L2b which is 15 points. They need to make 8 points across 2 years and so 4 point so 2 sub levels a year. However in order to meet the Ofsted expectation of good progress some with an EYFS GLD pupils need to exceed L2b+- they need to make more than 8 points.

For children below the GLD the expectation is that very many of them will make more than expected progress and reach L2b+. So depending on how a school tracks they may need to make 10 or 12 points across 2 years.

There has been no research to show how pupils with the expected under the current EYFS Profile actually track into Year 1. There will be some national data when the 1st cohort gets to KS1 this year. The DfE may release it at a high level- they did in 2010 but not since.

For current Y1 there is no level lc, lb etc as they are moving to the new National Curriculum.

Basically this is all average and national. For an individual child I would not worry about APS and more than expected progress. Children make progress at different rates at different times in their lives. This is all normal and all typical.

mrz Thu 20-Nov-14 18:14:44

It doesn't matter what "level" your child ends the year they are still expected to make progress. So whether they end Y1 as level 1 or level 6 they will be expected to make a full level (or more) progress in Y2

mrz Thu 20-Nov-14 18:16:20

Of course after this year your child won't be working to levels as they will no longer exist.

brambledscrains Thu 20-Nov-14 20:45:47

Thank you, I'm still confused, but that's me just trying to wrap my head round it. So a yr 1 child ending on 2a should be a 3a or if at 3c should be a 4c by the end of yr 2? Not should be but if they make good progress will be ... that is one whole level even though it's a jump to the next key stage? Although not everyone agrees?

teacherwith2kids Thu 20-Nov-14 20:51:06

Berambled,

There aren't 'key stage 1 levels' and 'key stage 2 levels'. It is a continuum. I have taught Year 5 children working at level 1, and Year 2 children working within Level 4.

mrz Thu 20-Nov-14 20:57:14

One full level would be expected progress in Y2 good progress would be more than a full level

simbacatlivesagain Thu 20-Nov-14 21:03:49

No. The progress expectations are at cohort level not individual BUT if you want to look broadly at a child then you would look from the end of Reception to end of KS1.

Some schools may break down this by points per year but this is somewhat arbitrary and not based on any study of sufficient enough pupil numbers and demographics to make it viable.

All we really know is the breakdown of pupils at the end of Reception, end of Key Stage 1 and end of Key Stage 2. Anything else involves an element of school (or assessment system) arbitrary judgements.

Looking at 10 different EYFS to KS1 tracking systems- each used a slightly different methodology and none are based on the past history of actual children as there is no national end of Year 1 data and never has been (Y1 has been the data black hole forever).

Dont worry about it. A 2a child at end of Reception will probably be somewhere in L3 at the end of KS1 but there are so many factors. A decent L3- so L3 b or L3a. A childs progress is not linear- they may have surged in Y1 and just consolidate and move a bit in Y2- but their overall progress could still be good across the key stage.

A current Y1 child will not be assessed by old NC levels. A current Y2 child will be assessed against them but will probably already be working on elements of the new national curriculum- some of which wont be formally assessed at the end of Year 2 at all this year (will be next year).

simbacatlivesagain Thu 20-Nov-14 21:05:56

Whoops- A 2a child at the end of Year 1 - not end of Reception will probably be a L3 a or b. Typo

teacherwith2kids Thu 20-Nov-14 21:09:18

(Brambled, though i do agree that it is odd - and tbh arbitrary, and therefore may well not represent what happens for any 'real' child - for a child at 3c in Y1 to be expected to make a whole level of progress in Y2 to 4c, whereas a child entering Y3 at 3c would be regarded as making good progress if they made 2 sublevels of progress, to 3a. I would say that a child working securely within L4 at the end of Y2 is really quite rare, though possible, especially in maths)

brambledscrains Thu 20-Nov-14 21:46:11

Got it! Thank you everyone, especially teacher as your last post there is the expectation managing bit I probably need most.