Late applications questions

[Mposh]

Sorry, about this rather long post, the topic may be covered, but did not see it.


My DS will be 5 in October and is currently with an excellent nursery. I'm a bit slack about school issues as I went overseas for school myself. Basically, I asked the council about putting him in school back when he was 2.5 and was told it was too early. Every year I kept some school forms, which were due in March/April. We decided on current nursery on recommendation and we are very happy there -he was rather gentle and shy, but is thriving over there.


DH always insisted on him going to some international schools we identified, but he's been on 3 waiting lists for over 2yrs now. So we realised we must apply at a local school too. Imagine my surprise when I realised in Jan (thinking I am preparing for March as usual), that the application date has just expired. (I also blame pregnancy hormones for this.lol)

The council told us we are late but seemed to forward our forms to our number 1 school choice and told us we had to fill in the supplementary forms. As it's church affiliated I had to get the supp forms to our church overseas, that took ages. After all that effort, I went to the school and the admissions officer was not there and the receptionist told me that they have not done placements yet, and to come back at another date to speak to the admissions cause she could not see my DS name anywhere even though I had a council letter with me. When I came back another lady was there and flatly refused to take anything from me.

I live just across the school. I called the no2 and 3 choices and they said they accept applications, but as late applicants. The council said they would get back to me as they are surprised that the school would not even look at my application form when they have not done placements. Someone told me that the council has to get my DS into a school, they it may not be of our choice.

My understanding is that it's not just first come, first serve as we are in the catchment and have other qualifications. Why do the other schools still accept forms then? Would my DS be going to Reception or Year 1?

While I'm happy for him to continue at the nursery and re-apply next year, DH would prefer he goes to school and be one of the older ones. But the nursery is individualistic, and has a few older kids who are even at a Maths Division stage - which I find very advanced for nursery. Any thoughts?

[annh]

I'm not sure why you think schools should be accepting forms from you? You apply on one form to the LA listing schools in order of choice and only where the school requires a supplementary form do you supply that supplementary form to the school direct. Supplementary forms are usually required for faith schools - are all of your choices faith schools?

You also need to check the admissions criteria carefully for your chosen schools as I don't know why you had to send the forms to a church overseas. Faith schools will sometimes prioritise applicants in parish or who attend the local church but they will certainly question how you can be a practising member of the faith if your church is overseas and you live here? You need to work out which category you fall into for admissions and that may give you a clue to your chances of getting a place.

The LA will have to find you a place at some school but as another poster has mentioned this will not necessarily be at any of your preferred schools and, if you live in an area with over-subscribed schools, the school may well be at some distance from your house and not one that you are particularly happy with.

I would go back to the international schools and see whereabouts you are on the waiting list now. International schools tend to have a higher turn-over than many other schools so you may find if you keep in touch that a place will come up there. Are you aware that if you delay your son's school start to the next year, he will go straight into Yr 1 and miss reception entirely? And you will be applying for a Yr 1 place so therefore depending on someone leaving that class to get in to the school?

[admission]

If you were late with your applications then you will be treated as a late application for all primary schools. What this means is that all pupils who had on time applications will be allocated a place and only then will they look at your application. If any of your schools that you have expressed an interest in have places left then you will be allocated a place. If however the preferred schools do not have a place left then the LA will allocate you a place at the nearest school with places. Quite frankly that could be miles away and if you are London or parts of the SE the LA may not have any spare places to allocate to you immediately. Whilst there is a legal requirement on the LA to offer you a place that may not be immediately after the allocation date.
Your first preference school that has a supplementary form has probably not accepted your form because it was late and they do not want to confuse the issue. However as soon as the first allocation of places is complete, a new list is formed for the waiting list which is again in admission criteria order. Presumably if you have got the form filled in ok you will receive preference from that and coupled with living just across the road that should put you high up on the waiting list for the school. So it is important to get that supplementary form to the school. I would write to the admissions officer accepting that the form is late as was the LA application but that you wish this information to be taken into consideration when it comes to the waiting list for the school, if you are not successful in the first tranche of allocations.

[Mposh]

Thanks for the replies,

The council sent me a letter to acknowledge my application and list my top 3 choices and to say I must contact the church schools direct about the supplementary forms. My problem is that school choice 1, does not seem to be putting me on a 'waiting list'. They just said they have over 100 applications for a 30 pupil space and did not even look at my forms.

All my choices are church affiliated because within walking and short bus ride distance it seems all the state schools are church affiliated ( i live near Marble Arch, London). Also these schools have been recommended by friends / league tables etc.

We do not go to church, but our kids and us are baptised. Our priest wrote a recommendation letter as we go to church when we go to DH parents (France) over weekends, holidays etc.

We call the international (bilingual) schools ever so often, but they are so over subscribed, their waiting lists are notoriously long. So am beginning to wonder if we should not go local.

Personally I like our choices as they are known to be excellent and conveniently across the road, and if it were up to me alone (not with hubby), I would have long just gone with them and nothing else.

[prh47bridge]

As you are a late applicant you go to the back of the queue so school 1 does not need to look at your forms yet. The waiting list won't start operating until offers have been made. When a vacancy comes up which has to be filled from the waiting list they will need to look at your forms to determine where you should be on the waiting list. They cannot put you at the back of the list simply because you applied late (although you should check this - it is not unknown for schools, or even LAs, to get this wrong).

[Mposh]

When I went to the choice1 school, I realised that they did not know anything about my son - I thought it strange, but assumed this was because I was a late applicant, though I wondered why they did not just say you are on the late list and will be considered later.
After getting turned away, I called the other schools and found out they are taking forms and putting them on the late list, so I am applying to them as a late applicant too. I know this is all a long shot, but worth a try.
I also phoned the council and the lady seemed surprised that the choice 1 just blatantly turned me away without putting me on the waiting list. The council lady said she would speak to her manager and ask a way forward. The manager came back to her saying that there was nothing they could do and the school will operate as they pleased and that I should have applied with the school on time and should have seen on the council application brochure that the school has it's own application form.

I am a bit confused because I did read the brochure before and recently and :

1. The council website and brochure, clearly state and highlights that you must fill in one common application form stating your preferences. (this makes sense to me as they will make sure you are not offered a place by many schools)
   

1. The only separate form I could see was the Supp Form, which when I read, is all about your religion and how much you attend church. (no where is it clearly stated that this form is another application for the school itself - just like the common application form - from what I read, I understood it that the form is on top of the common application for something for the governers to look at should you be applying on religious grounds).
   

She also pointed out that the school had extended the supp forms for another 5 days and I never took the opportunity to send at that time. Considering that I have never had any communication from this school, and neither is it on their website telling you anything about this, how could I have known. It so happens in that 5 days I was waiting for the priest overseas to send back the supp forms and recommendation letter (the priest does not speak English, so all this requires some translation).

That is the story so far.

I am now in the process of sending forms to the schools that will accept and my question is :
I have only two original birth certificates of my son, one original babtism certificate, and one of each original proof of address in the form of a council tax bill, a water bill. Our BT and Electricy bills are online, so have not original bills here in the house - electricity every 3 months mind you. How do I send all these to the 4 different choices of schools I have on the list?

[pinkdelight]

Sorry you're going through this - sounds like a nightmare! And very probably a waste of time and effort. If the schools are small, central London church schools, then they'll likely fill their places with people who regularly attend the relevant church so you'd be low on their list anyway. As others have said, it's most likely you will be offered a school that isn't any of your preferred choices and which, by definition, isn't oversubscribed. So I guess I'm saying don't kill yourself jumping through too many hoops. Your application is in, it will be considered after all the on-time applicants have had places allocated, then they will offer you a place elsewhere.

Just out of interest, did you apply before feb 17th? Some areas have that date as a 'late with good reason' application deadline. It's generally for those who've just moved into the area, and forgetting/not knowing about the deadline may not be considered a 'good reason', but if you can talk someone at the admissions team into getting it considered under that category, it will have the same chance as the on-time applications. That's my understanding anyway. Sure someone with more expertise will correct me if it's tosh.

Keep trying the international schools though. Places do sometimes come up.

[Mposh]

Thanks for your kind words PinkDelight.
I applied online on 16 January and the applications closed on 15 January. Can you believe it!

[prh47bridge]

The supplementary form is NOT another application. It gives the school additional information to help them evaluate your application and ensure your child is given the correct priority.

It sounds to me like your LA and the school are confused. You are a late applicant so you will be considered after all the on time applicants but the school cannot simply refuse to consider your application. The LA should be making this clear to the school.

Having said that, your chances of getting a place at this school based on the initial allocations are minimal. The important thing is that your child goes on the waiting list in the correct position. The waiting list is not in operation yet so I am not surprised the school won't put you on it. Once offers have been sent out, however, they should place your child on the waiting list. If they refuse to do so or they ignore the information on your supplementary form or they put you at the end of the list because you were late you will have a case for appeal.

[annh]

Prh47bridge has given great advice, as always. The school cannot put you on a waiting list which doesn't exist. The on-time applications have not yet been allocated a place in next year's reception class so how could there be a waiting list for a class which doesn't yet exist? I'm not sure what kind of list your other choices are operating, unless perhaps they are being sympathetic to your plight and will transfer your interest onto their official waiting list once places have been allocated. I think the offer date this year is April time so until that has passed there will be no waiting list.

I asked in a previous post whether you had checked the admissions criteria for your preferred schools? I still think that getting a priest in a parish in another country to complete the supplementary form is not going to be sufficient. The school will (rightly) say that you cannot be regularly attending this church so your position on the waiting list may not be high. Why are you not attending church here?

[Mposh]

You are all right, it's just that I am in such a panic because I don't want to find out later that I should have sent my form ages ago and would have stood a better chance because I'm near. Though if there are over 100 applicants, that means, over 70 pupils will be turned away anyway. So for now, I'm gratefull that the other choices even have a waiting list.

When I went to the school the first time, the receptionist asked me for some original proof of address etc. and was saying they would make copies. Can I just apply with copies for the other choices? Obviously at this stage don't really want to mess up again with minor details.

We are not particularly religious, so we do not go to church. DH and I were both baptised as babies and through tradition, trying to give them a choice later in life and grandparents insistence the kids were also baptised. We also go to church when visiting the grandparents. The particular school next to our house is CofE, but the kids and DH are Catholic, while I am Methodist baptised. But this is another issue altogether for me as I am not clear why all the state schools for miles are religious when everyone is paying tax. We have no problem with our children being taught religion or going to church affiliated schools - but it would seem that they have a problem with us not being religious.

[sunnyday123]

dont forget, in the 100 applications the school has, not all will be first choice. DDs school takes 60 kids, last year there were 120 applications but only 74 listed it as first choice and the others probably got their 1st or 2nd choice schools. In an area operating a 3 choice system all schools in theory will get 3x the number of applications surely? Its possible under 40 of those 100 are first choice, no?

[sunnyday123]

Your local council should be able to provide info such as number of applications received last year and how many were listed as 1st, 2nd, 3rd choice etc.