HELP - I don't recognise my 11 yo DD anymore

[Carom1]

Can anyone offer any advise. My 11 yo DD has turned into the devil incarnate.

She is rude beyond belief, terrorising her little sister. Lately she has begun to get physical, she will push me, has thrown things at me and I am ashamed to say, I have reacted physically (after an hour of her screaming, ranting and pushing), I have lashed out. Unfortunately hitting her seems to be the only thing that will stop the behaviour in it's tracks, somehow it brings her back to her senses, she immediately stops whatever behaviour and just start's howling and crying like a baby. I don't know what is going on in her head.

I feel sick after I have smacked her, and devastated for her that she is dealing with all stress and emotions. I feel she is getting worse and worse and pushing more and more, by the day. She is so defiant and rude it is unbelievable. Up to recently, my husband was able to control her, but now she is being defiant with him.

I feel like we have tried everything, we ground her for a week at a time, take her phone and iPad, cancelled playdates, sit with her regular to try to understand and suggest strategies to manage her emotions, but nothing seems to work.

She has recently started her period, (3 months ago) but the moods don't coincide specifically with PMS. The worst of her behaviour is when she arrives in from school, it's like the minute she crosses the threshold to our house, all her demons are released.

There is always a big snack ready for her the minute she arrives home, which she devours, so it's not lack of food. She can't explain why afterwards, just shrugs her shoulders and say's she doesn't know, or blames me or her sister, for putting her in a bad mood. She is now rarely apologetic afterwards and despite seeing me in floods of tears, it just doesn't seem to bother her in the slightest.

Apparently she is enjoying school (just entered secondary school) nothing troubling her there, according to her. She is an angel at school and when she is with her friends. It's just her family she seems to hate.

I am thinking of taking her to a psychologist to try to get to the bottom of her anger issues, but my husband thinks we will screw her up even more if we take her to someone, although I think he is coming slowly around to the idea.

Any ideas of what our next steps should be ? would really appreciate any advice as I am at my wits end.

[Ladycurd]

Oh that sounds really hard. One thing I get from your post is that there are lots of negative consequences but not much positive reinforcement. It's so hard to do the positive stuff when they are being ratbags but genuinely it is the stuff that can transform behaviour. Read the book love bombing and try and spend some quality time with her doing what she wants to do. I think a psychologist is a step too far at this stage but he might benefit from a counsellor. Does her school have one? Many do. Getting physical back isn't great but I've been there too. Think about apologising to her and reminding her you love her and that her behaviour is worrying you at the min. Ask her if she was the mum in the situation what she would do in the situation. Is she getting enough sleep and exercise? Does she have some responsibilities at home as she is older? Good luck with her - she will come through to the other side!

[combust22]

She sounds very unhappy, she is only 11 and has gone through some big changes recently.

At home she is being hit and punished.

I agree with the PP, this is not a psychological issue, it's a parenting one. I would speak to your HV to find out how to get yourself some help.

[Romeyroo]

Is your husband her dad? What is the age difference between the siblings?
Second the suggestion about quality time. My DD is the same age as yours, and really appreciates one on one time. We do things like ice-skating, shopping trips, even helping her tidy her room or do her nails. I have got a big age gap, so she does spend a lot of time at 'younger' stuff like play parks and soft play, but I try to choose ones which are good for older kids too. It sounds a bit like your house is a battleground, so maybe taking her out that environment would help.
I do sympathise, mine bicker non-stop sometimes, and my younger one also tends to let it all out at home with me. It is hard going.

[differentnameforthis]

She doesn't hate you.
You are her safe place, where else can she sound off but still be sure of unconditional love.

You have to be the strong adult. Don't hit, don't shout. Be calm, but firm.

While I understand that that is no excuse for her physically hitting out, you can't discipline her & tell her that hitting is bad, yet hit her.

It does stop the behaviour, because she is so shocked that you are using violence against her. Her tears are pain & disbelief. And she will lose faith in you if you don't stop.

I would make sure she isn't tired, that school isn't stressing her & that there are no friend issues.

She started her periods three months ago, and she started a new school recently! That is quite a lot to contend with.

I wouldn't take things off her, but I would make her earn the privilege of using her ipad.

[Carom1]

Thank you all for the responses.

I agree it is a parenting issue on my behalf, I am totally, utterly lost in knowing how to deal with her daily rages.

We do all the positive reinforcements with her, and she is an angel when we do one-on-one with her. Every few weeks we take her out on a 'date' night with us, an early dinner for just the three of us. My husband and I do individual one on one with her regularly. I often take her with her friends to the movies without her little sister. She does earn rewards for good behaviour, and I try to pick my battles with her, which means having to swallow and ignore some terrible behaviour. It's just that none of that has stemmed the tantrums and rudeness.

The grounding and other stuff has come into play only recently as her behaviour increasingly got out of control.

My husband is her father and the age difference is 4 1/2 years between her and her younger sister. My husband is of the opinion that we are now paying the price for being too 'soft' with her and he believes we need to get tough with the consequences, as we are heading for an out of control teenager.

I think instead of a psychologist for her, my first step will be to try to get some professional parenting advise on how to manage this change in circumstance with her, we love her so much and cant bear that we don't understand what is going on with her and where the behaviour is coming from.

Ladycurd, I like the idea of asking her if she was a mum how would she deal with it, I think that might get her thinking, as all the other questions have not seemed to have an impact.

[combust22]

You may find this book interesting:

www.amazon.co.uk/How-Talk-Kids-Will-Listen/dp/1848123094?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

Rather than being too "soft" or indeed trying to think up new punishments this book presents a shift in thinking for parents.

I don't use punishments.

[ElephantsNeverForgive]

These a teen version of how to talk which is also very good.

I agree that while firm boundaries are necessary, escalating punishments do not work. An immediate go to your room is fine, but long groundings or removal of gadgets/money just leads to resentment.

Her behaviour doesn't feel very teen to me. It's far more like DD2 in Y5 and very many Y5/Y6s being an angel in school and letting off steam the second they feel safe (no teachers and especially no peers watching).

As far as I can tell it's a horrible mixture of wanting to be grown up and being scared and not ready to grow up. Wanting to be in control, but still needing your unconditional love.

With a ten year old you give lots of hugs and little bits of freedom. Trip to the shops, being left in the house rather than dragged off to taxi sibling.

By Y7 I guess your DD has these freedoms, so I'm not sure what you do.

[livelablove]

Rather than put up with a screaming fit for an hour when you end up hitting her, I would walk away as soon as her behaviour becomes unacceptable. As she is 11 you could even leave the house if you need to. Dont go too far away stay nearby so you can be sure she is safe, but remove yourself from the row. By staying and listening to her shout etc it is escalating the situation and giving her an audience. She will calm down quicker if you leave and also it avoids you getting upset and hitting her.
This is the best way to deal with her screaming fits.
She is at a difficult age and needs to learn how to deal with stress.

[Romeyroo]

Rather than put up with a screaming fit for an hour when you end up hitting her, I would walk away as soon as her behaviour becomes unacceptable.

Yes, on reflection, this is what happens with DD, but rather, I tell her to go to her room and come back when she wants to talk properly. If both dc are getting ridiculous and the row is escalating, I tell them both to go to their rooms; I don't even try to mediate.

Sorry if the question about whether your DH is her dad was intrusive; just when DD was in a step-family, there were more tensions. I can kind of imagine it having escalated to the situation you describe, but maybe that was because my ex was also of the mind I was too soft.

[livelablove]

If there seems to be no reason for her angry episodes it is probably a build up of lots of little annoyances and pressures. You said she is an "angel" at school, which makes me wonder if she is putting a lot of pressure on herself to do well, especially with all the changes of a new school. So this pressure is building up all day and then when she is safe at home the least little thing will cause her to explode. In a way she wants a row to help destress herself.
So she needs to learn that it is not ok to do this to your family. Some adults still do this, and it is a bad way to act. But she needs to learn to take some of the pressure off if she is piling it on herself, give herself permission to mess up occasionally, and to release it in safe ways by talking to someone she trusts, maybe writing a journal. Also exercise can help and relaxation techniques. Maybe when she gets home from school she can go to her room for a bit and chill out, while she eats her snack. Keep dc2 away and let her relax for a bit.
Have a chat with her when she is calm and talk about these things in a child friendly way, so you can set up a routine that will help her. Tell her she can talk to you anytime, and you will be there to listen and support her even if it is just a little problem. If she wants to ring you from school if she is having a bad day and wants a little chat she might be able to do that too, or maybe there is a teacher at school she could go to? Tell her if something upsets you do something about it, but do it in a calm assertive way dont let things build up then end up blowing up in anger.
How to talk mentioned above is a good book to help with this talking/listening.
I do think you should hold her accountable for her behaviour. No you can't shout and scream at your family, that has to stop. There should be consequences just as there are in the adult world. But at the same time say its no wonder you feel angry, unhappy and stressed sometimes and we dont think less of you but we want to help you learn to express your feelings in better ways and do what we can to help and support you.

[ElephantsNeverForgive]

For years DD2 and me had a rule coming home from primary school.

"If you have nothing nice to say, be quiet. Anything you say about your day must be positive"

This of course came with the, caveat, the serious genuine problems could be raised, but low level grumpy negativity was unacceptable.

Now, she's 13, she just throws off her uniform and races out to the trampoline. A decent number of back flips, front tucks and cartwheels later, she's unwound and ready to chat or chill in her room.

[combust22]

elephant I think it can be useful to have a bit of a grumble, get things off your chest. I do it to my OH, have a moan about a few trivial unpleasant things, as well as share the positives. He does the same- I think it can be helpful to get things off your chest.

Children are no different- I also like to know what is going on in my kid's school life- good and bad.

[jeee]

I also think you shouldn't underestimate how stressful starting secondary school is - even for those children who seem to be coping well. It's a massive upheaval.

[ElephantsNeverForgive]

Trouble was DD2 managed the sort of grumble that involved me and DD1 and was generally argumentative and awkward. It didn't make for a pleasant start to the evening.

[livelablove]

It all depends if you could let them have a bit of a moan and they would feel better (as i would myself) or would they start getting upset. If my dd is already in a mood she will take anything you say the wrong way and end up in a strop. So it is normally best to.let her chill out a bit before trying to talk.

[Corygal]

You need to be the safe place, the adult. So no bursting into tears, and no clouting. You need to show you are in control, to make her feel safe as well as to provide a framework in which you can also manage her unacceptable behaviour.

A lot of her behaviour is unacceptable, to be honest. So talk to her, be nice, and don't lose it in front of her or you'll make it worse.

[agnesf]

Agree with all that's been said although a lot easier to say than do.

I find it particularly hard to get out of way of similar aged DD shouting/ wailing - if she's in full flow she will just follow me out of house and down the road shouting her head off. I imagine for the OP with 8 y/o younger sibling this is also tricky. Sending to room works a bit but is often only achieved when reinforced with a threat to withdraw some privelige e.g. missing Brownies or similar.

Its soo hard to keep your cool in that situation.

Something I found helped was practicing what I was going to do when it happened to kind of mentally prepare myself of how to cope with it.

[velourvoyageur]

Are you sure it's not a food thing after all?
If she's grumpy right when she gets in and then she devours her snack....feeling empty and lightheaded in the afternoon can make you awful to be around & then the heavy feeling after you've filled up can be unpleasant too. Can you give her a few snacks (prewrapped cheese/cereal bar e.g.) to eat throughout the afternoon? Three square meals a day doesn't work for everyone.

I don't think it's something you can fix. Teenagers are super hard work. You just have to carry on being firm and consistent and accept it's not going to be an easy ride, I don't think. please don't hit her again! She's 11 and growing up and it's an inappropriate answer to bad behaviour at any age IMO, but her personal space is going to become much more important to her all at once and a smack is going to seem like a really 'distant' answer to all the confusing complex emotions that are driving her atm.

Teenagers are soooo completely self centred, so you have to approach it from their very one-sided point of view. Everything is analysed in terms of their feelings, the effect on them. I say that in the nicest way possible. They might do charity work and help out at school etc but this is in a deeper sense. You have to get into their head a bit. Have you tried pulling back and trying not to get drawn in? For example, why do you make her snack- at 11 surely she should be doing it herself. You can withdraw that.