I may not know much about politics but all this Gordon/Labour bashing is hacking me off. I will never vote Tory, this is why

[queenoftheslatterns]

I dont understand the economy, nor am I able to debate intelligently and informatively on the current state of the economy. although tbh it seems that there is so much contridictory information on mn about the state of the country when labour got in etc that Im not really sure it matters.

however what I am able to do is remember what it was like growing up under the tories. my SD was unemployed, on long-term sick (not that it mattered, there were no jobs anyway). we were treated as second class citizans. there was no money for coal (still, at least it built up my immune system when i caught colds every month) on a monday evening (giro would come tuesday) we ate plain spaghetti for dinner. there was nothing left in the cupboards. milk was eeked out with hot water because it was a luxery.

im sure there were many worse off than us, and yes you can blame my parents to a certain extent, but it was horrible. unless you have been poor (and im talking genuinely poor) you cant understand what it was like. In my opinion the best thing Labour has done was to introduce tax credits. low income famillies have at least the chance to make ends meet. schemes such as new deal give people the chance to get back to work. these are not bad things.

there has been a lot of talk about boom/bust under labour, didnt the same thing happen in the 80's under the tories? the whole yuppie explosion? as far as i can gather its all part of an economic cycle. and the recession has been a worldwide one. it hasn't (as the mail and sun would have you believe) been confined to the UK. how on earth can labour be blamed?

as far as i can gather, the tories are the same party with a new leader. if you have a facelift it doesn't actually make you younger. the same applies here. I dfont want VAT to rise to 19.5% the £2 or so a week extra someone worked out it would cost the average family is the equivalent of a bag of potatoes. I dont want a conservative government. I want a change!

[daftpunk]

Taxes will rise whoever gets in...that's a definite , we're bankrupt and need to pay of millions in debt....the tories will cut benefits that's for sure...but they are being honest about that.

[queenoftheslatterns]

true DP, but it seems to me that the plans the tories have will have the greatest effect on the lower income famillies, after all, 2% of not a lot is a huge amount, 2% of a huge amount is not a lot.

ps, sorry for all my typos, have lost glasses again and am unable to focus properly

[daftpunk]

I've just seen my typos... I need to slow my typing down...I rush too much.

[azazello]

Labour haven't ruled out VAT rises either though and would probably have to make some as both tory and labour have ruled out increases in income tax.

I've seen less gordon bashing than tory bashing (and no, I'm lib dem if anything)

[wannaBe]

people are going to be worse off regardless of who comes to power.

All labour has done is make people dependent on benefits that the economy couldn't afford to sustain in the long-term.

Labour lured people into a false sense of security that was unsustainable.

And if you want to go back to how bad it was under the tori's when you were growing up, maybe you ought to ask yourself why it is that labour had never served two consecutive terms before now - because they screwed it up so badly the previous times...

[queenoftheslatterns]

lol dp

really azazello? ive seen the other way around, am also leaning rather heavily toward libdem.

I think a big problem is that TB jumped from a sort of sinking ship. GB is an economist (the recession could have hit much MUCH harder, and the majority of businesses that went to the wall were ones which weren't being particularly well managed anyway) and I think he did a good job in tough circs. things would most likely have been much worse under tory rule (although that may just be me being biased) people blame GB for a lot of things that he had no control over.

[scaryteacher]

GB is a career politician, and as far as I can see from his bio, has never had a 'proper' job. Why do you think he is an economist? the decision on gold should have put paid to that one.

[queenoftheslatterns]

but wannabe, surely labour is a different party now? under kinnock etc it was a far more socialist party.

there are obviously far too many people who can work but wont and have become dependant on benefits, but i dont believe that "anyone can get a 100k job if they just work hard enough" there will always be low income famillies who ARE dependant on things like TC, nursery places, surestart centres and grants. how did they cope beforehand? they didnt!

[moondog]

Well conversely I am also enraged by the money wasted on useless schemes-glossy booklets sent to homes telling people how to feed their children/brush their teeth/wipe their arses (if you aren't already doing this, a booklet sure as hell won't change your habits), benefits paid out left right and centre to peopel who don't need them, generations of people who have lost the ability to get off their arse and do some work, public services which are misused. The list goes on and on and on.

I'm not a Tory voter either.

[edam]

of course he had a proper job! He was a lecturer at a university I forget in Scotland.

Anyway, I do think it's worth remembering that under the last Tory administration, the NHS was rationed. By waiting list. After two years, if you were still alive, you might finally get your operation.

That's not a joke - it really happened in cardiac surgery. (And two year waits applied to other procedures too.)

[moondog]

I think GB is a good man though. A really noble man.

[Threelittleducks]

I live in Scotland and the consensus here seems to be that if we vote our own national party in then we will have a stab at being seperated from it all. Because the poor in Britain will be buggered, but in Scotland we will be SHAFTED. You won't find many tories this end.

I really hate this mentality because all my life I have been told that Tory is bad (very working class family) and SNP is just a Scottish version, but I must say - yes. Anything to get us far and away from Tory scum! It is simply terrifying how difficult life will be for me and my family if Tory get in. We have always been just above threshold of earnings to claim benefits and are making ends meet with tax credits (which are a godsend). If these are lost we will seriously struggle. And not in a "oh no, I can't afford my usual £40 haircut every month" but more of a "what the hell are we going to do if we can't pay the rent this month" kind of thing. Scary times!

[HumphreyCobbler]

I think Gordon Brown is an awful man.

But I agree with everthing else Moondog said.

[moondog]

Why do yuo think him awful Humph?

[HumphreyCobbler]

I know some people who have had extensive dealings with him. He has lied and lied and then covered his back.

[suwoo]

If the tories do sack the tax credits then I won't be able to go to university. I am starting in September and working evenings in order that we still qualify for tax credits. My childcare weekly bill for my 3 DC is circa £250 and tax credits will be paying a high proportion of this. I will NOT be able to go with out my tax credits.

[HumphreyCobbler]

can't expect anyone to understand wtf I am talking about either sorry...

[snowlady]

Queenoftheslatterns - I can understand where you are coming from and I think labour or lib dems will look after the most vulnerable more than the tories. Generally speaking I think David Cameron is more caring than Maggie T but the tories still seem to look after the wealthiest most.

The thing that bothered me most about the tories in the 80s was the privatisation of the infastructure of the country. I think this is why we now have Electricite de France (EDF) running our power supply and as a country are no longer self sufficient. Margaret thatcher hated trains and encouraged road building. More of a balance is needed I think.

Whilst I think Cameron himself is greener than most tories I think the lib dems as a whole are greener than the tories or labour and environmental considerations are important for me in deciding who to vote for.

After the privatisation under the tories the labour party have indulged in PFI to build schools and hospitals and it is going to cost the country millions. Both labour and tory governments seem to have had a very short term view of things and their policies have not been good in the longer term.

It would be good if the next government could plan for the future more.

[moondog]

Suwoon, not commenting on your personally but thIS WHOLE IDEA THAT NAYONE CAN GO TO UNI IS MAD TOO. (oops). Thousands of peopel coming out with shite degrees sand massively burdened with debt.

Why?

We are turning into a nation of peopel who either tap tap tap into computers or sit on our arses while the benefits come rolling in. We don't seem to be producers of anything useful anymore.

[HumphreyCobbler]

I agree again, perhaps if you were allowed to keep more of your earnings you would be able to afford to go?

I am sorry, though. I do know that shit times are ahead. My living comes from a public sector area that is going to face massive cuts, so it is not a rosy future for me either.

If there is no money to pay for it, there is no money to pay for it. We just can't have it.

[suwoo]

That might be me Moondog . I am taking all the loans in order to get there, I also only have 3 GCSE's and 1 A level.

I, however was accepted to Salford to do English with Cultural Studies based on my life experience and some examples of my written work. I wrote about breastfeeding and Nestle- how very MN

I am then going to do a PGCE and will make a fabulous teacher. I think because I am embarking on this at this stage of my life and making sacrifices means I won't come out with a shite degree and not put it to use.

[suwoo]

What do you mean Humphey about keeping more of my earnings?

DH works full time, I work evenings.

[HumphreyCobbler]

I mean the government wouldn't take so much of it from you in the first place to give it back in the form of tax credits.

[Beaaware]

If you do vote tory then you will be voting for Kenneth Clarke to be back in power, this is a frightening prospect as far as I am concerned, he was one of the ministers involved in the BSE crisis back in the 1980-90's who did not inform the public for 14 years about the devastating consequences of MAD COWS DISEASE on the British population.
Today we are living with regular deaths from the human form of mad cows disease. 129 children have lost their mothers and fathers to date and the figure is rising, 19 blood donors have died from vCJD, Vote tory and we'll be voting for the same old faces, no thankyou.

[queenoftheslatterns]

labour has a lot of policies that i agree with and while i agree that a lot of the schemes that gave birth to the "nanny state" term have been ridonkulous, i also think they have done a lot of good. there is more equality now than ever before. children from poor famillies CAN go to uni. they CAN afford 3 meals a day and to heat their homes, although as snowlady said the privatisation of the utilities by MT and her tory party gave rise to higher energy bills anyway.