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Philosophy/religion

don't know what to call this...

7 replies

namechangeduetostruggle · 07/02/2008 08:41

If anyone has any thoughts on this they can share I will appreciate it very much. I've got two things I need help with.

I'm a Christian through choice and gratitude. I've never felt called, I've sat in church and waited for a sort of Damascene moment, and I've never had it. So I just choose it, and a lot of it doesn't make any sense to me. But when people try to explain it I feel annoyed, because it can't make sense, and that's one of the reasons I believe in it "passes all understanding" and all that. Because it does pass all understanding, the fact that God created everything, and nothing exists that He didn't create, and that there's a lot of crapola in the world, and He created that too. I find it hard to pray sometimes, because thoughts creep in like "but You made them ill in the first place, You made them lose their job, You made those kids die" etc. Do a lot of people feel like this? I know that lots of Christians feel called, are there any that don't and just have to choose it? And I had a prayer answered recently like, the day after. And the answer came with double knobs on after months of unhappiness. Which has thrown me. Because I'm grateful, but I think, well You could have saved us a lot of grief in the meantime.

And now I have feelings of love for someone. I'm not committing adultery or going to, but what are these feelings for? Why have I been given them? Is it a test? But what's the purpose of it?

Please if anyone has any thoughts I would be grateful if you would share them. And if anyone has read any books by Christian mathematicians or scientists I would be grateful for recommendations.

With thanks.

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SueBaroo · 07/02/2008 09:39

Hiya,

yes, I have never had a 'Damascene conversion'. I took a long time to be convinced of things like the bible, and I wouldn't believe something based on how I felt about it. I suppose I'm quite deliberate in that sense.

You sound like you really want to explore these enormous things you're wrestling with, and if you're looking for some thing to read, there is a very useful directory, with thousands of resources online that I'd recommend. Based on what you've shared, I'd suggest this to explore the suffering issue, and perhaps this too.

I really think that it would probably help you to 'prove all things, and hold fast to that which is truth' - foundationally, iyswim.

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bobsmum · 07/02/2008 09:44

Hi namechange

That's a very lucid post, you've obviously been pondering things for a while now.

I'm no expert and never will be, but I can give you my ponderings if that's ok.

I'm a Christian through choice, but somewhere in that I do believe that God called me too. I've never had a big lights in the sky experience either, but I have felt peace, calm and reassurance at times which I believe is from God. I believe that God knows who I am and knew who I was going to be from before the beginning of time. I'm in the plan somewhere.

Sometimes we look at life and it looks like the back of a tapestry or cross stitch - all knotted, tangled and messy. But God looks at the finished picture from the other side - a perfect scene coming together over time. He knows about the mistakes and missed opportunities but he allows them to happen in order to create the bigger picture.

I don't believe that God made the crap in the world.

I believe that the world was made (however that happened!) perfect and complete, but somehow has begun to rot and corrode. We have the story of Eden to show us that it ultimately comes down to the selfishness of humanity. The Bible talks about the earth experiencing labour like pains before a new birth and I think that rings true for me.

There is pain and evil in this world that was never intended to be here, but strangely God knew that it would happen.

I believe that some of the things you describe are allowed to happen. We've had bereavement, redundancy etc (in small measures compared to some I appreciate) but I've felt carried through those times.

the Bible talks about God grieving along with us when these times come. The planet is diseased and dying because of human corruption, deception, selfishness - it's physically falling apart in places too. I believe that inhabitants and the planet itself are inextricably and spiritually bound together. I nthe same way that our bodies contain some of the same properties as stars - we're all connected.

God has perfect timing for his answers and I'm so sorry about how trite that comes across in type. It really does sound simplistic, but I can only give you my experience and understanding.

God has shown again and again that he waits for the right time before acting. Often I believe he takes a back seat, because so many people have denied his existence and I imagine Him sadly shaking his head and sitting back as He's been asked to do by billions of humans.

Other times I think of it as if I'm at a roundabout waiting for a clear road to cross, but I'm only looking left, thinking I can second guess God and come up with the solution to my problems, but all the while God has been there looking to the right waiting for the obstacles to move or in some cases actually intervening himself.

This is so waffly - I wish I could be speaking face to face - I really don't come across well in type.

Um..... as for your feelings - they are natural and human. We are relational beings, made to love and be loved - you are craving that relationship and that's a God given desire BUT you also know that with such huge desires and depth of feelings that as Christians we are asked to be responsible and self controlled with our feelings.

Look at the Trinity - the ultimate in relationship - completely intertwined, working together, unbroken and perfect.

Look at these feelings you have for this other person. What is it that you love about them - what have you seen in them that has sparked you on the inside so powerfully? But remember that for love to be love, it must be tied up tightly with commitment, trust, faithfulness and honesty - if these things are there and aren't mutual then I wouldn't call it love. Strong attraction - yes, but not love.

This is from Philipians 4:8

Summing it all up, friends, I'd say you'll do best by filling your minds and meditating on things true, noble, reputable, authentic, compelling, gracious?the best, not the worst; the beautiful, not the ugly; things to praise, not things to curse. Put into practice what you learned from me, what you heard and saw and realized. Do that, and God, who makes everything work together, will work you into his most excellent harmonies.

Do your feelings fit into this model? They may feel powerful and and deep, but dwelling on them can only bring heartbreak. Especially if it will impact on your feelings for whoever you're committed to at the moment.

Call on God, confront Him, tell him how you really feel. I can tell you that he's been waiting for you to be honest with him about your doubts, fears and temptations.

Jesus was tempted. Hugely! By the devil himself. Temptation is not a sin - it's what you do about it that might lead you away from doing the right thing.

ASk for strength - tell God you're struggling. Don't ask for these feelings to get taken away - but ask how to deal with them. You have been given a gift of feeling deeply - but the feelings and emotions are misdirected towards one person who you know is not yours to be attached to. So think about the person that you're committed to and ask to see them how God sees them.

Love isn't just a feeling. It's a pure and holy spiritual force with great power. It has impacts in the spiritual realm when it's employed in a Godly way. You and your partner could come through this so much stronger, more tightly knit together that this might be the beginning of a real renewal of both of your experiences of each other and God in your lives.

Ecclesiastes 4:12 says:

"Though one may be overpowered,
two can defend themselves.
A cord of three strands is not quickly broken."

You and your partner make up 2 cords - add God in as a third and you will be united and strong physically, emotionally and spiritually.

You've unearthed a hunger for so much more in life. I believe that's a call from God - you've just been misdirected along the way (I'd call that the devil - the ultimate deciever and confuser, some other Christians might not) but either way the outcome is up to you. You have free will. You choose what to do next.

I"m just spilling out what comes into me head at ehe moment, so many apologies for anything that doesn't make sense, but I am praying for you.

I would recommend CS Lewis or Prof Don Carson for some good reading. 'Mere Christianity" (Lewis) is good 'The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God' (Carson) is very meaty, but useful. A lot of friends have recommended 'Velvet Elvis' here, but I've not read it yet - sounds good.

Keep posting.

Roseylea is a good listener too - I'll try to direct her over here

Praying that God invades your everyday life in a new and powerful and unavoidable way.

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stuffitall · 07/02/2008 10:02

Thank you Suebaroo and Bobsmum. There is so much to think about and I want to read over what you've written. Bobsmum, it's not waffly, it's full of understanding. x

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madamez · 07/02/2008 10:09

I appreicate this is a difficult time for you, and please don't think I'm mocking you or evangelising when I suggest that you might find it helpful to read some atheist/humanist literature as well, simply because it is possible to live a happy and ethical life without believing in gods or higher powers, and if you don't believe in them, you can't force yourself to do so. FWIW it makes no sense at all to me that there's this creature that made everything, is all-powerful, and yet has to be placated regularly and lets people die agonizing deaths from cancer or whole tribes starve for some wierd reason of its own. Myth systems that are supposed to explain the world and teach certain values can be useful though many of the values many myth systems teach are pretty toxic (it's ok to kill unbelievers, women are not human etc).
I would recommend someone like Julian Biaggi rather than either Dawkins or Hitchens as both of the latter can be so strident that reading them might make you feel a bit bullied.

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rosieyorkshirelass · 07/02/2008 19:44

Check out www.sermonaudio.com lots of teachings on all different aspects of the christian life. Check out the pastor Rev Norman Green, who we as a family are under. We need fellow christians, good sound teaching too. There are so many churches about that are not preaching the whole counsel of God- and so many people are not answered probably when asking deeper questions about Christianity. Hopes this helps in some way.

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namechangeduetostruggle · 09/02/2008 11:44

I haven't been able to post until now but just want to say thanks again. Madamez, I don't think you're mocking at all, and it's good of you to take the time to write, really good of you. I'm in this position having studied atheism and humanism and I still make this choice, so now I need to study in another direction I think. I will google your stuff Rosie.

Suebaroo and Bob's Mum, that morning your posts helped me in a very specific "resisting temptation" way so I think you have done your good turn for this week!

A rev once gave me his explanation of free will -- that is: if God is omnipotent, why could he not give us free will without all the evil that goes with it. He said otherwise it wouldn't be a choice; and love is a choice.. we have to choose to love God. I don't really know what he meant but found and find it a comfort.

Many thanks for the time you have taken.

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ibblewob · 09/02/2008 23:35

Hi, have only just found the religion threads, and am v apprehensive about posting because I know that there is such a huge gamut of religious experience, and how can one opinion (i.e. mine!) possibly have any weight! But then obviously forums would be a bit quiet...

Sorry what I wanted to say was that if you are a Christian, then whether you 'feel' it or not, God has chosen you. Romans 8:28-30 -

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

You wouldn't be able to believe in God at all without the Holy Spirit working in your heart and mind. I hope that's reassuring!

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