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Music

Anyone very very good at music theory out there?

26 replies

ChuppaChups · 19/07/2009 22:25

I need help analysising some music and need to to produce a succinct description of the ritornello formal structure. am struggling.

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Wigeon · 20/07/2009 11:50

DH has a PhD in music and lectured at various universities until doing a PGCE and becoming a school teacher - I can ask him when he's back from the end of term school music trip to Paris (tomorrow) if you like.

Can you give me a bit more context in the meantime?

ChuppaChups · 20/07/2009 13:16

yes, i am doing an open university course called elements of music. My current assignment asks about the use of the motifs and structural form which i know from the current coursework is 100% ritornello. We have only a limited number of words we can us and need to know how do downsize my 80 words to around 40 maybe. Should i analysis bar by bar or section by section! i got an email back from my tutor today and its made it clearer but any advice is welcome!

Thankyou

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Wigeon · 20/07/2009 13:20

Is your tutor by any chance Catherine Parsonage??!

Wigeon · 20/07/2009 13:21

Sorry, she's now Tackley (got married recently)

ChuppaChups · 20/07/2009 22:59

no, its not sorry! is that lady a tutor as well?

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Katisha · 20/07/2009 23:09

What's the piece of music?

Wigeon · 22/07/2009 21:49

DH writes: "Tough word limit! If you're asked specifically about motifs and structural form, that sounds to me like they want to know how you think the whole thing is built up of little tiny building blocks. So, are there any little fragments of melody which reappear at different moments throughout the piece? Do they reappear at structurally important points (e.g. when the music has modulated or come back to the home key)? Have they changed, and if so, how? I guess then you could think about how this differs from what you get in between in a ritornello form - do you have the motifs there as well, but in an altered form (e.g. upside down, back to front etc.)?

Hope that makes sense - good luck with the assignment!

By the way, Catherine Tackley is an OU music tutor and a former colleague of mine."

ChuppaChups · 23/07/2009 16:12

thankyou, thankyou!! This has really helped.

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Wigeon · 23/07/2009 19:42

DH writes: "That's ok - anytime!"

ChuppaChups · 27/07/2009 23:02

seriously? my next assignment is 750 word limit on a schubert piece, i will be back! am off to summer school next week so will post after then (am dreading figured bass lessons :^O)

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ChuppaChups · 28/07/2009 10:25

.. its schubert String quartet in A minor . x

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ChuppaChups · 19/08/2009 15:14

hi, any tips of bach chorale harmonization? have been stuck on it for 3 days and my bass line is everything but smooth. am close to tears!

xxx

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Katisha · 19/08/2009 15:24

IT's OK for the bass to be leaping about a bit at cadences and crucial progressions. Generally the bass is the jumpiest part - just don't make it unsingable I suppose? Can you put in some passing notes to smooth out the jumps?

MrsBadger · 19/08/2009 15:35

use some inversions?

passing notes in other parts may help make notes easier to pitch and hence more singable too

Katisha · 19/08/2009 15:40

Do you think they'll lift this thread for the Daily Mail?

MrsBadger · 19/08/2009 15:41

we can only hope!

Katisha · 19/08/2009 20:39

Are you waiting for Wigeon's DH OP?

ChuppaChups · 19/08/2009 21:44

oh yes i am. where is he!

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Wigeon · 01/09/2009 21:07

Bonjour! DH (plus me and DD!) were in France! But we are back now. Except tonight DH is (rather appropriately) at a Prom. But I will point him in this direction tomorrow.

By the way, he totally hated harminising stuff etc at A-level and then had a great teacher at university and suddenly "got" harmonisation and now has a kinda geeky love of it...not that I'm bigging him up or anything...

Just off to watch that chap from The Choir on the telly, my DH's role model (sad but true). He even bears a passing resemblance to him...

Have you had any feedback about your last assignment yet?

Wigeon · 02/09/2009 22:21

DH writes: "Help - pressure! I'm not sure I've got a lot more to add than what Katisha and Mrs Badger have said. Really hard to do this without looking at the notation you're using!

For me, it's all about getting an outline, then filling in the gaps. I would always recommend getting your cadences in first, then figure out a strong chord to start each phrase on. Then you can start filling in the gaps in the middle of each phrase.

I'm guessing you're at a stage where you've got all four parts in at the moment? If so, what I'd do at this stage if I had a jumpy bass line would be to go back to thinking about the chorale in just two parts - the treble and the bass. If you start by looking at your treble line, and thinking that each note needs a bass note that is either 1) the same, 2) a third below, 3) a fifth below or 4) a sixth below, you'll realise you don't have too many options - quite a liberating feeling. But you'll also (hopefully!) be able to find a path for your bass line which is a bit smoother. (By the way, by a third, fifth etc. below I mean 8ve plus a third fifth etc.)

Once you've done that, you can start to think about how to fill in the gaps - i.e. the alto and tenor parts. I personally wouldn't fret too much about whether you're using a IIb7 or a VI or whatever - as long as the starts and ends of phrases are strong, harmonies in the middle generally look after themselves.

I tend to find that you get jumpy bass lines when you're determined to use a particular chord - i.e. thinking vertically - rather than making sure each line works well with the others - i.e. thinking horizontally.

Good luck with it - and do say if any of this is unclear!"

Wigeon · 02/09/2009 22:23

PS (Wigeon here again) - do you think this juicy post pretty much guarantees our appearance in next week's Daily Mail? DH reckons the world would be a much better place if they ran a weekly music theory column.

IdrisTheDragon · 02/09/2009 22:37

I am sure you will be appearing in the Daily Mail next week

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Katisha · 02/09/2009 22:43

DECLINE OF WORKING KNOWLEDGE OF BAROQUE ORNAMENTATION AMONG MODERN PARENTS SHOCK!

ZippysMum · 02/09/2009 22:52

Having read this thread AND cried while watching The Choir on iPlayer this evening, I am feeling both educated and cultured.

Thanks Wigeon and family

ChuppaChups · 05/09/2009 09:40

hi there, ive managed to complete the harmonisation and 750 word analysis on schubert string quartet in A minor (1st mvmt) but not had results back yet! Harmonising is hard i think because there are so many possibilities! The only chord we are told NEVER to use is chord iii but i have found this is some of the Romantic period music AND consecutive 5ths what a scandal!

Thankyou for all your tips.

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