Any advice on what to look for in a German Kindergarten?

[HopeForTheBestExpectTheWorst]

Ds is 2.1 and won't be starting for another year, but I thought I'd start looking around at what the local kindergartens are like and, if necessary, put his name down for our preferred one.

However, I don't really know what sort of thing I should be looking out for, or what questions I should ask.

If anyone who's been through it can offer any tips, I'd be most grateful! TIA

[MmeLindt]

We had a great kita in Germany.

I liked

• the calm and happy atmosphere. I never heard a teacher shout at a child.

• the big garden

• the mixed age groups (not sure if they have this everywhere in Germany)

• decent meals

• flexible hours. We drop the DC off anytime from 7.30 to 9am. Lunch from 11.30 to 2pm (ours were Tageskinder) then pick up in the afternoon basically whenever we felt like it, until 4.30pm. A friend in Wü had to bring her DD at certain times and was not allowed to pick her DD up earlier than arranged.

• They should arrange for your DS to go for a trial run, in the 4 - 6 weeks before he starts, a couple of times a week to get used to it. To begin with your can stay and then once he gets more confident you can leave for an hour or so.

• When he starts it is good if he can start gradually, an hour the first day, then two then gradually increasing as he feels confident. (My DC did not want to come home, I had to drag them out kicking and screaming)

[trockodile]

I agree with everything Mme Lindt says! Ours has all of that too and I love it! Also that the children hug the teachers/sit on their lap/brush their hair!(while playing hairdresses!) and really seem to like them. Ours has older staff who have been their for ever and also a mix of older students who do work experience-DS like it when male students come in.

I surprised myself by liking the fact that they are not bogged down in paperwork and health and safety!

Our KG is a parent initiative one where the parents have an elected committee, and also take it in turns to do things like wash towels/do gardening jobs. We pay a little extra each month for 2 extra teachers one morning- 1 for psycho motorik, and 1 spends extra time with the oldest children (Schulkinder).

However I must add all this was found by sheer fluke as I could not get DS onto KG in our area-long story due to DH in British Army- and it was only when I mentioned it to a (fairly new)friend at church that she told me her neighbour worked in a KG (10 kms away in another town) and she would ask her-definitely a match made in heaven

[trockodile]

I must be tired! Am not going through post correcting typos though-or grammar!

[admylin]

When my ds was old enough to start kindergarden I found all the places that I was prepared to travel/walk to, around us (I had 4 to look at) then I just called in mid-morning without an appointment as I then got a feel of the atmosphere in full swing so to speak. In most cases I was shown around and then given a form to fill in which was then sent to a central office (town) and they wrote to me to say where I could have a place. I had 2 offers so I chose the one I liked most.

You can get different sorts of places within one Kindergarten - so we had a morning and afternoon slot but had to take them home between 12 and 2pm and could take them back in the afternoon but only 'til 4pm. Other places were full time from between 7am and 6pm but those places cost according to how much you you earn.

[HopeForTheBestExpectTheWorst]

Thank you for your replies!

That's interesting admylin that you dropped in unannounced, and that they were ok with that!

There is no parent initiative KG near us, afaIk, but there are four other KGs within walking distance (which is what I would ideally like). One is run by the church, and as we are not religious, I don't think we'd send ds there. I hadn't thought it would really make a difference, but they actually state the following:

"Im Evangelischen Kindergarten machen die Kinder - neben dem Elternhaus - erste Erfahrungen mit Inhalten und Formen des christlichen Glaubens. Durch biblische Geschichten, Bilder, Symbole, Gebete und Lieder möchten wir den Kindern die Liebe Gottes vermitteln und sie in kindgerechter Form mit den wichtigen Aussagen und Werten des christlichen Glaubens bekannt machen. "

which does sound as if the religious element is quite a big part of the KG. Does anyone have any experience of a church KG?

So I shall be checking out the other three, bearing in mind all the points which you've posted here!
Thanks again

[ZZZen]

dd went to church kigas . Dh and I are both Christians so were fine with any basic religious instruction but there was not much going on. Our kigs had 3 Muslim and 2 Jewish dc, some Russian Orthodox, but the majority are from at least nominally CHristian families.

IIRC they do St. Martin (procession in the dark with lanterns and a pastry duck, bonfire back at the kiga) For this they hear the story of St. Martin sharing his cloak with a poor beggar at the city walls. They had a morning circle where they sang songs, song I think were about God, they said grace before meals and they had carol singing in church at Christmastime, big dress-up party in kiga for carnival (but all do this , religious or not).

What else? That was about it I think. I wouldn't expect any kind of missionary zeal or dynamic Christian evangelism at all. They are just connected to a parish. I would just point out though that IME going on what I have seen and heard at other state-run or say Montessori kigas church-run kigas are not especially nice or gentle, so if you are uneasy about them, look into the other ones.

I also second dropping in unexpected. Check to see if you see any dc smiling, honestly at times you'd think you'd landed in a morgue, albeit a noisy one. Also I would want them to have their own nice outdoor playground. Some of them troop off crossing streets everyday to go a public playground and I wouldn't feel comfortable with that. One group is generally 15 kids with 1 Erzieher, maybe 2 and that's it. I've seen 30 (2 groups) with 1 Erzieher go to a playground together in the afternoon. Just imagine keeping your eye on all of them and ensuring no one runs onto the road into oncoming traffic etc.

[ZZZen]

In some places you just have to take what you can get because there are not enough places to go around (or keep them at home).

If you have a choice, obviously a carer forthe group who strikes you personally as friendly and nice may suit your dc. They do have this week long system of gently introducing them to it by having them stay longer and longer, initially with the new dc's parents staying there too. I think that works quite well.

I would when you apply and speak to the director, gently sound out how strict they are about rules. I took dd out of one because it was so rule-based, I felt they had lost sight of the fact that it was about little dc.

For instance they HAD to have a nap till they were 4, whether they needed it or not, had to lie down with their eyes SHUT and silent till they were told to wake up. This I find stupid when they no longer need to sleep. Then from the age of 4 they were no longer PERMITTED to have a nap even if they were dead tired and almost asleep on their feet and so on and so forth. That's what I would be wary about.

They are very different to a UK nursery

[MmeLindt]

As to the church kita.

We had one church kita in our town, they had a reputation of being quite strict. I did hear one woman (in a playgroup) say that she would send her DD there as she was quite wilful and they wanted her to be better controlled.

They were much more concerned with rules than our kita was.

[HopeForTheBestExpectTheWorst]

Thank you again for your posts. Lots to bear in mind when I drop in unexpectedly on our local Kigas

I don't know yet what the situation is re: places around here. I do know that at one particular Kiga they have just had about half the children move up to school, so they are (at the moment) half empty. But that probably won't be the case in a years' time when ds needs a place. And I don't know how "good" that particular Kiga is anyway.

I certainly wouldn't want one that was too strict about rules - there's enough time for all that when they start proper school.

May I ask ZZZen what in particular you find to be very different to UK nurseries? Only because I'm interested, don't actually need to know for any reason!

And another thing that has just occured to me: some of my english-speaking friends here are determined to put their dcs into bilingual Kigas. I'm not really bothered (although I may change my tune when ds comes home from Kiga refusing to speak anything except German), but have any of you had any experience of bilingual nurseries? I know quite a few now do some sort of English lesson/singing/activity type of thing.

[ZZZen]

I decided to send dd to a German speaking kiga so she would have learnt German well after 3 years, ready for school since it looked like we might be staying longer term.

I know families whose dc have been at bilingual kigas. They keep their English up best in a purely Engish speaking kiga. Tbh if I had another dc in Germany, I wouldl ook for a purely English language Montessori kiga. Dp have told me that in those bilingual kigas, the dc overwhelmingly speak German together anyway, so I'm not sure they are worth it for people who speak English at home.

If you have a choice, certainly go and look at them. Might be nice for you and ds to meet English speaking friends so you can keep his English up later if he is to attend a German speaking school.

I think on the whole, German kigas are ok, they differ from a British nursery in many ways, not all bad. For instance the carers are not university trained, they are people who have gone through the lower sorts of German school and then done some training. They manage big groups, generally the groups are of mixed ages 3-6 all together. They are also quite cheap in comparison. I have read some things on MN about the TV being on in nurseries and so on and I really think you can comfortably say, this is never going to happen in a German kiga.

Ours had nice meals, freshly cooked and not those awful big kitchens delivering rubbery, mass produced gunk (which is what happens in schools) this depends on the kiga though.

Mine were from 9-3pm. They were quite strict about dp picking them up either straight after lunch or at 3pm (not inbetween because it would disrupt nap time - which I think is fine). The day began (mind you I had 3 altogether) with sitting down and singing songs, then pottering about indoors, doing what they wanted. They stop for a snack (which you have packed) and then weather permitting play outdoors doing what they want, digging in the sandpit, climbing frames, they had a nice wooden castle, things to hide in and a shed full of bikes, tricycles, and carts and things they could help themselves to.

Then inside again to wash hands, have lunch together, everyone brushes their teeth together, gets changed, lies down and has a nap. Everyone gets up together, gets dressed and goes to play outdoors till the parents come for them. I don't know what the bigger dc do who no longer nap when the weather is bad and they have to stay indoors, something quiet I presume. I know my dd was into "helping the cook" who was thankfully a lovely Croatian granny who was fine with that. I am sure she was totally in the way.

In some places, the dp are friendlier or have more time to chat than in others. I think it's nice forthe dc to make friends like that and in Germany they mostly just go on to the local school, so unless people move away, there is continuity of friendships there.

The Catholic kigas my dd attended were just lovely, unlike the school which was a real disaster. She went to 2 x Catholic kigas which I both found great, lovely people and 1 other one when we moved inbetween which was the rule-based horrible one , I moved her out of.

[ZZZen]

admylin said once her ds was unhappy in his kiga which is sad. My dd loved going but not so much to Nr 2, she got quite upset there at the screaming around, the enforcement of rules and soem of the things they did. However whenever I spoke to the carers, either there or if I passed them in the street, I got on fine with them. I was just uneasy with what I heard and saw of how they handled the dc themselves (which in the end is hwat it is all about).

They were all lovely women and they put a lot of work into organising things like CHristmas shows, St. Martin and even had the dc (the whole group 3-6) to spend the night with them in the kiga. I could not have contemplated doing that. They loved that.

Jsut imagine, you one adult with 10-15 dc (can't remember now how many exactly) THey arrived in the late afternoon, she went out to a playground round the corner with them, brougth them back, gave them a simple bread-based meal, had them clean their teeth, get changed, played indoor games and they slept there with her in pajamas and in the morning were there having breakfasted when the other dc arrived forthe kiga day. It is easy to knock these people and find fault but hoenstly what they are expected to do with these big groups, how many UK-trained carers would cope?

Dd met her all-time best friend there , a lovely German boy who moved with her to kiga number 3 because I just felt too uneasy with the whole rule-enforcement and the harsh tone of kiga nr 2. He has told us that he will be marrying dd when they grow up, so that's good, one less thing to worry about!

[MmeLindt]

My experience of Kitas is a bit differnt to ZZZen's.

DD's group was 24 children, 2 full time carers and normally 2 students. One would be just starting training and the other doing the "Annerkennungsjahr" so fully trained but still on the pittance auszubildende wage.

The children would come any time between 7.30 and 9am, most of them arrived after 8.30am. They would have Morgenkreis, where they sit together and sing some songs, speak about what they had done the day before, share stories etc. Then the group would be split up, some would have breakfast which they prepare themselves. Out Kita asked us all to bring something from the breakfast list (Bread, ham cheese, fruit etc) and they put out a buffet style breakfast. The children had chores too, they had to set or clear the table, do the dishes, water the plants etc.

I would say that there is a bit more of encouraging the children to be independant than in UK nurseries (from what I have read on here)

They went on outings quite a bit, ask about that. If they go and if they need parents to go with them.

Ask if they have a Förderverein, and if there is some way that you can get involved if that is something that you would like to do.

[ZZZen]

how far in advance did you have to put your name down ML, can you remember? I can't but I think since they were church ones , I went round the summer before and put her name on a list. It's a bit fuzzy now though. If it's too early, they'll tell you though

[MmeLindt]

We moved to a new town so it was only a couple of months in advance. There are different rules for people who are already in the area.

In our town, you would generally put your name down about a year before.

[ZZZen]

I seem to remember it was quite a bit in advance of when we needed the place