Am I breaching the court order?

[Bishalisha]

I’ll try to give as much info as possible. Doesn’t help that I don’t have contact order to hand

1. court stated late 2018 father was to have weekly supervised contact on a Saturday to reestablish the relationship. This was not overnight and for a period of 8 hours. Magistrates not looking to change this until the final hearing. Contact has been predominantly every other week due to father not being able to organise supervisors
   
2. list of supervisors was agreed. Father wanted his own father as supervised but after hearing concerns were not agreeable. Father has asked on a further 6 occasions for his father to be included and I have refused to allow this, my solicitor has contacts his twice asking him to stop asking
   
3. holiday within the uk and two hours from home for Friday- Tuesday (this August weekend) was booked in February, in the knowledge that there was a hearing in March and a final hearing would be before where this could be discussed
   
4. I THINK holiday was mentioned in pre March hearing position statement. When it was mentioned towards the end of the March hearing the fathers counsel dismissed it and said we could discuss it at the next hearing set for May
   
5. may hearing was cancelled and no date for final hearing was set as Father was apparently completely unavailable on weekdays until January.
   
6. I text father 24th June informing him of this trip. He did not acknowledge receipt of this text though did respond asking if I had seen his email (another request to add his father to list of supervisors)
   
7. father emailed Monday morning mentioning trip and how he is happy for child to do things that benefit him. But as it’s at a weekend, can he have him on Thursday instead and no supervisors are available but his dad is. I responded saying that I am not in agreement to his father supervising and he is not on the list and that he is welcome to see him Thursday if one of the named supervisors are available
   
8. he responded saying that he will just have to see him on Saturday then ‘as per the court order’
   
   I haven’t had a chance to speak to my solicitor yet but I can’t work out if I’m in breach of the order if we go away as the order does state every week (as an aside- how are families supposed to plan holidays when dealing with a controlling ex? When weekly is ordered ) my ex is incredibly controlling and difficult which has been acknowledged by the courts and this is the reason we are holidaying in the UK, as I could anticipate difficulties. I’m just wondering if going is going to backfire on me?

[Bishalisha]

Sorry that was a terrible essay with poor grammar.

I meant to add- the child is 10, and very much looking forward to their first holiday in 4 years

[CodenameVillanelle]

Yes I'm afraid so. You should have pushed for a hearing to determine the issue of holidays.

[Bishalisha]

@CodenameVillanelle the problem was that after the May hearing was cancelled he said that he was entirely unavailable on weekdays until January, so no final hearing was set. We had a hearing in July where he was supposed to provide proof of his unavailability but he didn’t turn up or give his counsel any evidence and as I had evidence to the contrary it showed that he misled the court. The court ran over and again they wrapped up pretty quickly before it was mentioned. When I mentioned this to my solicitor and barrister (very senior) previously as I was confused about the 28 day rule for taking children abroad when contact is ordered weekly and how to avoid it they said that as I am the resident parent it doesn’t matter, I can take him abroad? I’m just so confused

[Emma861]

You can take child abroad for 28 days without permission from dad because you are resident parent. You would however be breaking the court order if you did this because you would need dad to agree to that part.

[Emma861]

On his weekend I meant to say.

[Bishalisha]

That’s a shame as he technically has him for 8 hours every weekend and he would refuse permission just for the sake of refusing permission.

In this instance he had had 6 weeks notice and a reminder notice 3 weeks ago- so he has had all this time to object and arrange supervisor. Half the time when he can’t have our child it’s because he leaves arranging supervision until the last minute. It’s frustrating as in this instance, he was fine with it and even said

“ As you know I am always supportive of XXXXX not missing out on events that benefit him therefore I would like to agree an alternative to him spending his Saturday with me in the same vein as we have done previously when a Saturday has not been feasible.”

And when I said that his father can not be a supervisor but he is welcome to see him Saturday with a court ordered supervisor he replied

“We'll just have to leave it as Saturday as per the Order.”

Which is a shame as it shows that he is clearly just being difficult.

Family court process sucks

[Bishalisha]

See him Thursday with a court ordered supervisor* (Thursday was his suggestion)

[Karigan195]

Retain the messages in which it is agreed that he can have him on Thursday so long as supervisor is available.

Confirm in writing that as per prior agreement you are content to swap to Thursday if a suitable supervisor is available.

Go on holiday.

What the court wishes to penalise is blatant disregard for orders and those who seek to keep the kid away from the other parent. I don’t believe for one moment the court will penalise you for taking the kid on holiday if you have proof of willingness to swap and his agreement initially.

This is however dependant on you being completely candid and if there is a history of you preventing access then it could be a massive problem.

[Emma861]

To be honest, I would still take my child and let the courts see how he is not putting sons best interests first. How about arranging an extra day the week after?

It shows you are propmoting a relationship and that he is being unreasonable.

[Bishalisha]

I had 16 separate email requests where I have agreed to change/extend contact previously.

I did initially have to stop unsupervised contact due to finding out about domestic violence and animal cruelty convictions and he went AWOL for a period (with the odd bit of supervised contact) before apply to court.

I know it is specifically written in an old court order that there is no evidence of parental alienation so the courts know that I haven’t done anything to be difficult. Cafcass also ordered he attend a DAPP court which he is contesting as he doesn’t believe he is abusive. I will or course keep the emails and ask my solicitor to write tomorrow reiterating that Thursday is fine if he can find one of his (court ordered) supervisors named in the court order.

@emma there is literally no point arranging any other day as everything has to be exactly on his terms and even if he and a supervisor were entirely free, he would say no just to be awkward- we will of course offer alternate dates but I know how he works

We will certainly be going away. It’s funny how he suddenly wants to stick to the letter of the court order when he’s consistently breaching it regarding making direct contact with our child (only supposed to on a specific day at a c time through a specific method) yet he constantly calls, texts, emails him

[Emma861]

So tired. Thought id just briefly say, when it comes to court hearing, make sure you ask for the agreement that you can take son away for upto a maximum of two weeks on holiday with three months notice each year. To be written into the ruling. My sister got caught out with this and had to go back for a variation.

Good luck with everything! Hope you and son have a lovely holiday.

[CodenameVillanelle]

If you have legal representation have you asked them what the consequence would be of taking him away?
Of course logically speaking you've done everything you could and you should get to go on holiday. But family courts can be capricious and abusive men are clever, so I would always caution against laying yourself open to any accusations of breaching.

[mordecaithomas]

Just out of curiosity, why is it you're refusing his father to be put down as a supervisor?

[Collaborate]

Just wanted to come on here to correct this:
can take child abroad for 28 days without permission from dad because you are resident parent. from @Emma861 earlier.

There is nothing to say OP has a residence (or "lives with") order in her favour. Therefore she will need the father's consent to take the child out of the UK on holiday. Whether in practice she will be stopped at either end of her journey is impossible to say, but it is a risk.

[Bishalisha]

@CodenameVillanelle I will be speaking to her today

@mordecaithomas I don't want to go into details but will say that the courts heard my concerns and refused his request in court to have him added. I will also say that he actually has 7 other named supervisors as friends and family + a paid for in the community contact center (he will not have tried to book the contact center though)

@collaborate that's correct, he has agreed to a lives with order in a position statement (after first trying for shared residence, then sole residency, then changing his mind but refusing a lives with order) but it isn't written up yet. We are holidaying in the UK for 3 nights though but i suppose the same principals applies that it is over his contact time

[mordecaithomas]

I thought that might have been the case. I just wondered if it was something the court had agreed on, which was why I was confused as to why he thinks it's acceptable to continue asking.

He sounds like a complete and utter ass. He's not making the effort to make sure contact is regular and it's actually him breaking the court order but not seeing the child every week because he "can't find a supervisor for that week".

When me an my ex husband split, he was a real cunt, he arranged a contact centre himself to rebuild the relationship between him and his son after a year of hell and him not seeing him. We are somehow now on terms where we agree without a court order in place.

Your ex can't demand that you don't take your child on a holiday in the UK because it defaults one of his contact days. He's already defaulted on his own.

I'd say take your child. Explain it to the courts when it comes to it (although it sounds as thought he next hearing won't be for some time)

[mordecaithomas]

Sorry that was meant to say he was breaking the contact order by not seeing the child*

[Bishalisha]

Thank you. It's been an incredibly difficult time. This is just a small snippet of difficulties. Not a single thing can be done without drama. My solicitor has said that the final order is going to have to touch on every single subject and be watertight. He even tried to interpret the original court order that said contact between 10:00 - 18:00 to mean that he can be in any location and the supervisor must get our child to him for 10:00 and leave him at 18:00 so if he's 2 hours away, the supervisor will need to collect at 8 am and our son will be home at 8 pm.... how the hell do you manage to interpret that?!

If I was told that I needed supervised contact with my son and if I didn't have supervisors then I wouldn't be able to see my son- I would ask my supervisors to let me know what they can and can not do for 12 weeks and then book in paid for supervision to fill in any blanks- he waits until the Wednesday before asking who can supervise that weekend and if no one is available then he doesn't see him, rather than plan in advance and try to book paid for supervision.

Honestly complete and utter ass is an understatement

[sashh]

Well can't he pick your ds up from your holiday place and have him for the day?

Email him and say that ds will be available and you will meet to hand him over at X place at 10.00am.

[Soontobe60]

I would also be taking him on holiday, and letting ex know that he can see him on Saturday in your holiday location, with one of the approved supervisors.
You know he's being awkward, and if you have all the email /texts as proof of this I can't believe there's a court in the land who would hold younto account because of this.

[TheBrilloPad]

Would it be an option to speak to the paid for contact centre to see if they have a availability on the Thursday? That way if your email said "I have confirmed with the contact centre they can provide a paid for supervisor for the Thursday you suggested, and on this occasion I am willing to split the costs 50/50", no court in the world could say you tried to obstruct access.

[stucknoue]

I think it comes down to 2 points, one is whether you have been flexible on times to him and two is why his father is not a suitable supervisor (you not liking his dad is not a valid reason, they have to be genuine safeguarding concerns). In this instance it sounds like he made a reasonable offer to you, unless there's a significant reason why his father is not an appropriate adult supervisor, the court would probably see you as being the unreasonable one. Obviously we don't know why it's supervised contact in the first place - court ordered is usually in a contact centre, from what you said it's more about building a relationship

[mordecaithomas]

@stucknoue yes, but for a court to order that the father must be supervised speaks volumes whether we know the reason why or not. The same goes for his father being placed as a suitable supervisor. The child father hasn't even been adhering to the order himself by not doing his visitations weekly because he chooses not to arrange a suitable supervisor until a few days prior.

Plus his continual requests that his own father be placed on the list regardless of what a judge has ordered. I'd say he was the unreasonable party out of the two.

The court order states his visitations are weekly and he has essentially broken that order by not maintaining that in the first place. So for him to use that as a threat against the OP for taking their son away (in the uk - which she does not need permission to do legally) is unreasonable, and contradicting.

[Bishalisha]

@stucknoue have you read the full thread?

1. I have agreed to him having DC on Thursday with a court approved supervisor. He is suggesting a non court approved supervisor and has not explored the option of using the paid for supervision.
   
   
2. He requested his father by a supervisor in court- the court listened to arguments from both him and me. The court declined his request and his father is not allowed to be a supervisor
   
   
3. He has asked me on around 6 separate occasions outside of court to include his father. My solicitor has written two reiterating the order, the decision of the courts and that we are not agreeable
   
   
4. Father has had at least SIX WEEKS notice of this weekend away. He also received a reminder 3 weeks ago. He was also made aware in court in March that we planned a breakaway but his counsel wouldn't hear of it until the next hearing (that was subsequently canceled)
   
   
5. I have examples of 16 instances since January where I have been flexible with times and dates. This does not include the instances where contact hasn't happened as he hasn't found a supervisor.
   
   
6. Contact is supervised due to violent domestic convictions and convictions of cruelty to an animal. The court agreed it needs to be supervised. Cafcass have agreed that it needs to be supervised. I agreed it could be within the family and friends who we agree on to make it more affordable for father.
   
   He's actually just sent me an email reiterating that he will be having our DC on Saturday 'as per the court order' as he is trying to antagonise me.

[Jeezoh]

Does the court order mention where his access has to take place? If not, I’d be doing the following:

1. Tell ex that your LO is available for access with a court ordered supervisor on Thursday
   
2. Tell your ex if Thursday isn’t convenient, your LO will be available for access with a court ordered supervisor at somewhere near your holiday location
   
3. apply to finalize the court order as soon as you can - the inability of your ex to attend before January sounds like a delaying/controlling tactic and I’d argue it’s in the interests of all parties to have the arrangements set out properly and watertight to avoid the scenario you’re in. Especially as Christmas is approaching and I presume you’ll need to have an agreement about who gets what with your LO
   
   Given the concerns about your ex that the court is aware of and the reasonableness you’ve displayed to meeting the court order, I can’t imagine the court would take a dim view of going on holiday, even if it does breach on a technicality. They clearly think you’re in the best position to be the primary caregiver and I can’t see you taking this holiday erasing all you’ve demonstrated so far.