Advice - getting parental rights for grandparents without father's agreement

[ChildFreeWeek]

I'm hoping for some advice on my situation (how I should proceed/an idea of what the fees could amount to) so that I can deal with this as efficiently as possible: I've accounted for my annual leave entitlement for the year and don't have any spare cash at the moment.

I've left my daughter (2) with my parents 3 weeks ago to live with them indefinitely until my situation is better and I can provide a stable home. My (now) ex partner didn't agree to this: I visited them for a weekend and decided to leave her there.

Primary reason, concern for her welfare. Ex was supposed to be caring for daughter in the day whilst I worked full time. He decided to take some night shifts, but he would not get childcare so he could sleep during the day as he insisted that he could sleep when I got in from work before his shifts. It got to the stage where he wasn't sleeping in the evening: he would shut himself and daughter in the living room during the day and leave my daughter playing with his mobile/tv on, whilst he dozed on the settee. There was a instance when she took herelf up to the potty and got poo everywhere because she was unsupervised. Luckily nothing worse happened.

Secondly, he wasn't taking her out during the day, so she wasn't socialising with children. He had stopped taking her to swimming lessons. The only regular interaction would be when I took her to football on Sundays. Even before the lack of sleep, he wouldn't make any effort to take her to playgroup or swing park. The only time he would bother going to the wild park would be if he wanted to sit outside and relax. The food he gave her had poor nutritional values/ lacking fruit or veg. I don't think this necessarily is neglect, but is indicative of his lack of interest/laziness/self-absorption.

We had discussed sending daughter to live with my parents whilst we sorted ourselves out. Landlord has given us notice on the flat, have been paying below market rate and looking at the market rate in the area would be an increase of £400per month: we are in one of the cheapest areas of London already. We have debts (in my name) which we wouldn't be able to pay with this increase in rent etc. However, when push came to shove he wasn't ready to send daughter to my parents/ wouldn't discuss. We hadn't decided to separate at this stage.

I want to give my parents parental responsibility so they can look after my daughter, and I don't want ex to be able to take her from them. He is insistent that daughter will live with him in a flat in London. He has recently started a permanent job (nights). I know he will not be able to afford a flat and childcare he would need cover when he worked at night and the so he could sleep during the day. From what he said he would be using unregistered childcare known through friends of friends etc.

My parents live 150 miles away and nursery costs are cheaper. I've enrolled daughter in nursery two days per week, she now has a garden to play in, there are other family members living locally and on hand to babysit. None of which we could provide where we are (flat and no family/little support). She is getting more attention from my parents as well.

I forgot to add I'm going to rent a room to halve my living expenses in order to clear debts asap and put towards a deposit. It will be easier for me to study without daughter and finish professional qualification. I want short term pain for longterm gain (security) whilst providing routine and stability for my daughter.

Do I need to get a child arrangement order from the courts? Will I have to attend mediation with ex? I know he won't agree, but I rally don't want her to live with him as it's not in her best interests. Ex is on a special 2.5 year visa as he didn't meet requirements for spouse or British dependent. This will be up in 1.5years.
In the last 3.5years ex has probably given me less than £1k towards bills etc. I'm responsible for all expenses/everything is in my name (except his gym membership). I've paid out £3.5k for fees relating to his visa. Is there anyway I can get a some kind of financial agreement from the courts fir him to share the burden of the debts? Also child maintenance?

Any advice is much appreciated.

[ChildFreeWeek]

Also ex is Egyptian and I am concerned that he could try to leave the country if things take a turn for the worse.

[worridmum]

As mentioned in your last thread you are unlikely to convince the court that your parents are in a better position to look after the child, then their father in this situation and if it went to court he would most likely win.

For PR either all parties would have to agree to give it or the court would have to order it but they are unlikely to do so in this case.

For debts were you married? or was he just a long term partner? If not married you will have little chance in getting the debts into his name or shared if they are all in your name. If you were married it is easier to do this as if you can show that the debt was for joint stuff in can be classed as Martial debt (while if you ran up credit cards for stuff for you like holidays, handbags and other such things just to cost you EX money with debt is unlikely to succeed).

My advise would be to keep your child with you as all this will do is cost you money and you are unlikely to succeed with your plan. As you would need to prove how this is the in the best interests of the child.

Is moving a long distance away from both parents in the best interest of the child?

How will you / your parents facilitate access for your EX?

Why is your EX not suitable / not in the best interest of the child you live with their father.

Unless you can answer all these questions to the satisfaction of the court you will not win and if your EX challenges it he may well become the RP with you paying HIM maintenance.

(btw having the threads deleted and re-posting them at a later date is unlikely to change the advice given even if it is not what you want to hear)

[ChildFreeWeek]

Thank you, @worridmum. It may not be what I want to hear, but need to here it nonetheless.

Re your comment a about my other thread, I haven't posted anything in legal about this as far as I'm aware. I did type a long post but after I hit post I got an error message that it hadn't posted. I couldn't see a post and didn't receive any notifications. I'm off to investigate and i apologise if I've been ignoring a previous thread completely.

[ChildFreeWeek]

Just seen that it did post and I feel like a complete idiot.

Sorry. I'll get this thread deleted.

[Kazplus2]

I've also seen your previous thread. You are risking losing your child to its father completely. I think if you do not want that to happen then you either keep child with you or move in to parents without your child. There is absolutely no way that a coirt will allow your parents to be dole carers if its father wants that role. The reasons you have provided are quite frankly not sufficient for that role to be removed. Think carefully as whatever happens next will be entity down to this decision you have made.

[Kazplus2]

Sorry, lots of typos. I'm on my phone. That should have said 'move into parents with (not without) your child'. Ultimately, if child is not with you the courts will always see the next best home for child being with father, unless he poses a danger to it.

[ChildFreeWeek]

Thank you, Kaz.

[prh47bridge]

There is absolutely no way that a coirt will allow your parents to be dole carers if its father wants that role

I'm sorry but this is simply not true. The courts are concerned with the child's best interests. If they conclude that it is in the child's best interests that the grandparents are the sole carers that is what they will order, regardless of the father's wishes.

ChildFreeWeek - Even if the father consented you cannot give your parents PR. The only ways they can get PR are by applying for a child arrangements order, applying for a special guardianship order or adopting your daughter. However, in the current situation I would leave things alone. Let him apply for an order if he wants to change things.

As your daughter does not live with you, you are not eligible for child maintenance from the father. However, your parents can apply for child maintenance through the CMS.

It is not clear whether or not you are (or were) married to the father. If you were not married the basic rule is that his property is his, your property is yours and any jointly owned property gets split between you 50/50. If he owns a property and you contributed towards that you may be able to make a claim against the property but that is all. However, if you were married you are entitled to a fair portion of the assets and may also be entitled to spousal maintenance. You need to consult a solicitor.

[ChildFreeWeek]

Thank you prh47bridge. We are not married in UK law. We had an Islamic ceremony which is recognised in Egypt, so that she wouldn't be considered a bastard under Egyptian law is this would affect her legal rights and my Ex wants her to have dual nationality. I'm fairly certain he hasn't done anything to arrange this though. The only assets he has is land for development and a share of his late fathers house in Egypt. I've written off getting any money from him, he had kept saying he would take some of the debt off me but I think it's any empty promise.

I'm going to reply on my previous thread now.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/legal_matters/3301382-Separating-from-partner-and-sending-child-to-live-with-grandparents