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(61 Posts)
telsa Fri 13-Jun-14 09:19:40

No one interested? This looks phenomenally nasty to me and a massive cock up by US/UK which is irresolvable.

coffeeinbed Sat 14-Jun-14 20:52:35

Oh no Want, I don't really know anything about this all.
Your posts are very informative and much appreciated!

HexBramble Sat 14-Jun-14 23:24:40

want - thank you.
You are explaining this really well.
Next question (sorry). How do these differences affect modern day living? I know I sound like I'm ignorant, but I'm trying my best to understand all this bloodshed.

wanttoridebigslide Sun 15-Jun-14 00:35:51

Thanks coffee and Hex

this is a good chart which shows you side by side the differences between Sunni and Shia. On comparison of the two you can see that both sects agree on major fundamental points but have differing beliefs on less a number of important issues (in the grad scheme of things). This is where the tension comes from.

I once asked my husband can they not just agree to disagree and be united as believers in Allah? he answered that Islam is not only a religion it is woven into every part of you life, you must rise early to pray in the morning- you cannot have a lie in, you must slaughter you food in the prescribed way, obtain from certain food and drink, it sets rules about the nature of your relationships with the opposite sex, it enters every part of your life in every moment of it. Therefore these difference may be small in the grand scheme of things but because of the way Islam permeates your life they are magnified. I asked him if he was Sunni or Shia, he said I am Muslim. He said that the successor of Mohammed really doesn't matter to him how many thousands of years.

In Kirkuk (my husbands home city) there is a mix of Kurd (which he his), Turks, Sunnis and Shias and also Christians they mainly have their own areas but on the boundaries of these areas where you find a mix of different people you don't really see a huge difference in daily life. It appears they go about their daily life unaffected by the differing beliefs. I believe this to be the case generally in Baghdad too. From my experience the only time there is trouble between people living together in this way is when an extremist from either sect decides blowing themselves/a car up in an area close by dominated by one particular sect. When this happens on the news you see there is a rise in tension between the sects. Then everything slowly dies down and returns to normal until the next time.

Iraq has the potential to be a great country, it has the wealth from oil which could create wonderful infrastructure and services for its people but it can't. I love it there and people think I am insane! The warmth of the people is like nothing I have experienced. Even though my experiences are based mainly in the Kurdish region and Kirkuk even in the Arab areas I have been to I felt welcome and always safe. I just hope the ISIL don't completely tear apart Iraq and that the government can start to work for the good of all the Iraqi people regardless of religion/sect/ethnicity.

AuntieStella Sun 15-Jun-14 06:38:31

Incredible BBC article

Blair says that the current crisis is nothing to do with the removal of Saddam or the 2003 invasion - instead, according to him, it's a result of inaction on Syria.

The word 'warmonger' springs to mind.

oohdaddypig Sun 15-Jun-14 07:05:53

I feel so sad about this. All I can think about are the civilians who have been through so much already.

How can people get so hung up about bloody religion?

I soung naive, I know, but every time, I feel like I'm a looking at the situation like a child, in utter bewilderment at how religion can lead to people acting so brutally.

AuntieStella Sun 15-Jun-14 07:22:37

I think this is one of the cases where religion is just the badge for sectarianism. It tends to be seized on, as it's easy to spot. But like the BigEndians, it's about marking a group not anything to do with faith.

And if course the divide is centuries old, runs in families, and extends to numbers that make up nations.

AuntieStella Tue 17-Jun-14 07:19:21

This thread seems to have quietened down a bit (perhaps because the Boris-ish 'has Blair gone mad' thread was put into Discussions Of The Day yesterday).

I was wondering what the posters here think of the videos which came out yesterday? It seems to have led to a unified anti-ISIS community response in Baghdad - or is that not a fair representation? Was it designed to provoke sectarian strife and/or early surrenders?

Tansie Tue 17-Jun-14 08:30:34

Once again, this is tribalism, pure and simple, dressed up as 'religion'. It's what happens when large numbers of young, under-educated, unemployed and often unemployable prospectless men fall under the spell of someone who'll 'make it all better' for them; give them a sense of worth and purpose via the crude means of giving them the illusion of power, usually with a gun or bomb in their hands.

It's more or less the same story all over the world, particularly the less-developed parts.

The people if feel desperately sorry for is the women and girls whose lives become even worse once fundamentalist 'religion' is forced on them.

Sometimes it's hard to believe it's 2014, isn't it?

noddyholder Tue 17-Jun-14 09:15:35

The military personnel being deployed by uk and US now Are they on the ground but only to protect embassy staff or is this an excuse and a way to get them in even though they said no boots on ground?

AuntieStella Tue 17-Jun-14 10:15:23

The military would be involved if protection was needed for the Embassy (who we presumably want to stay if at all possible for reporting on what is happening and direct access to the Iraqi government) and also to conduct an evacuation operation for all Brits (and other nationals there for whom there are agreements UK should scoop up too) if it comes to that.

Do you have any links about who is being sent, or is that not publicly available?

Isitmebut Wed 18-Jun-14 15:13:23

Now Cameron has said at Prime Ministers Question he believes the UK is at a direct threat from ISIS/ISIL, who from their detailed annual report found in Iraq seem very organized (even by Al-Q standards), as we are already a target, I wouldn't be surprised if the Special Forces in the UK (and elsewhere), start targeting their Command structure, wherever it is.

Hopefully the SAS dishes out the same Human Rights to those that created/run the monster, that ISIS offers innocents in occupation.

nicename Wed 18-Jun-14 15:18:27

But again, its not about religion but power. Those with the biggest guns/thugs want to rule with force to their own ends.

Isitmebut Wed 18-Jun-14 15:35:41

I disagree, conflicts in Africa are mainly about power; the Sunni - Shia spat goes back many moons and is not just driven by a Jihad against the the 'non believers' (infidels) of Islam, but against those from the other main branch of Islam.

I looked up the difference years ago, but have forgotten the detail and don't want to appear any more ignorant of other's faith than I currently exhibit - but look it up with the main pillars of Islam, it's interesting. IMHO.

Isitmebut Wed 18-Jun-14 15:54:00

Apparently, Cameron at PMQT talking about 'the threat' to the UK, might have just been referring to the hundreds of Brits currently fighting in the Middle East, coming back. Still, if I was a senior ISIS member, I'd feel a little more ISILated (ahem), than I did earlier this week - and would look over my shoulder more often..

EdithWeston Wed 18-Jun-14 17:28:48

I think he said there are some 400 Britons who are believed to have travelled to Syria to fight and could well now be with ISIS.

There are also other European nationals doing the same.

If/when those people return, even more firmly radicalised and with both battlefield experience and training in terrorist tactics, then that could obvious pose a threat. Unless police/security/intelligence agencies across Europe can adequately track all of them indefinitely.

nicename Wed 18-Jun-14 18:45:14

How can anyone want to side with these monsters? There is evidence of their brutality against their 'mooslim bruvers' (as the north Londoners are fond of reminding us).

Why do these fools not rise up for peace? Are lads these days so desenstised to violence that they itch to kill?

JaneParker Wed 18-Jun-14 19:25:37

It's such a mess. There seem to be so many people out there who want to kill each other. The sooner we rid the planet of religion the better.

Many British people travelled to fight in the Spanish civil war against fascism and were not castigated for that. I don't see why we think those who go abroad to fight for a just cause or help the wounded should be criticised for it just because they are Muslim or non white, whatever sides they fight on.

7Days Wed 18-Jun-14 20:56:49

who is funding them?

Can't remember where i read it so correct me if i am wrong, but there are questions being asked of the iraqi military, at certain points of the advance they seemed to put up little or no fight against smaller forces. they abandoned arms and equipment on the side of the road which was handy for the approaching militia.

nicename Wed 18-Jun-14 22:33:31

Likely to be Saudi. A hell of a lot of money and scary crap comes from there.

coffeeinbed Wed 18-Jun-14 22:39:44


nicename Wed 18-Jun-14 22:54:26

"In the years they were getting started, a key component of ISIS’s support came from wealthy individuals in the Arab Gulf States of Kuwait, Qatar and Saudi Arabia. Sometimes the support came with the tacit nod of approval from those regimes; often, it took advantage of poor money laundering protections in those states, according to officials, experts, and leaders of the Syrian opposition, which is fighting ISIS as well as the regime.

“Everybody knows the money is going through Kuwait and that it’s coming from the Arab Gulf,” said Andrew Tabler, senior fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. “Kuwait’s banking system and its money changers have long been a huge problem because they are a major conduit for money to extremist groups in Syria and now Iraq.” The Daily Beast

Iflyaway Wed 18-Jun-14 22:59:54

Yes, it, s scary..

Tansie says pretty much how I see it too.

nicename Wed 18-Jun-14 23:08:30

Yup, Tansie plus ignorant/aggressive/violent western born/bred arse who are brainwashed (assuming they have a brain) into charging off to 'jihad'. I am scared that these wankers are strolling back into the UK and can be standing next to me on the tube.

Isitmebut Thu 19-Jun-14 14:09:53

Unless the 450 Brits alleged to be fighting for ISIS are mentioned in the following document, I can’t see how MI6 would definitely know how many are all fighting for them – rather than be spread across other fighters e.g the less radical Free Syrian’s – but maybe any such fighting is potential domestic terrorist ‘work experience’.

Although the money to fund them came from rich Jihadi backers all around the Gulf, much of their funding now comes via what they plunder, oil from Syria (and now from Iraq?) and arms/tanks from a near 300,000 Iraq army, with too many Sunni soldiers within on the Syrian border – who ran from around a maximum 14,000 ISIS ‘army’, although only a small portion of that has done so well thus far.

”Jihadi Terror Group Plc: ISIS zealots log assassinations, suicide missions and bombings in annual report for financial backers”

• The annual publication is called al-Naba, which is Arabic for 'The News'
• Reports for 2012 and 2013 were analysed by Institute for the Study of War
• ISIS claims to have carried out 10,000 operations in Iraq last year alone
• These included assassinations, bombings and the freeing of prisoners
• Isis compiles it to attract donors and present themselves as organised
• Details emerged as new information about group's funding came to light

It appears they are as good with Powerpoint, as pointing their guns.

AuntieStella Thu 19-Jun-14 15:01:11

I don't think the parallel to the Spanish Civil War stands up as neither side in that was threatening anyone outside Spain's borders. ISIS is Al Qaeda affiliated, and they have attacked in numerous other locations, including UK.

And IIRC, there have been instances of foreign fighters in recent wars (break up of Yugoslavia?) being trained by the Muj in terrorist tactics and going on to attack elsewhere. (Or is my recollection totally off on that one?)

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