too scared to ask for harder work

[Habanera]

DD2 is aged 7 and 3/4. She got a 4a for literacy in SATS aged 6 and has reading age 12 or 13 +, is above average at numeracy too though not "gifted" definitely able. A little shy outside the home, nary a complaint from school, but orders us about and can be hard to cope with in private-if you can get her nose out of book, she then talks incessantly, obsesses with stories, bosses us about, gets down and tragic about things daily, hits DD1 and says very cutting put-downs to me and DD1.

Recently she changed schools, another good local state school in year 3. I spoke to head about her reading and was assured there was a G&T person. She has settled well and it has boosted her confidence socially (phew!). She has found the classwork very simple and is already looking down a bit on new classmates which I try to combat.

Problem: Teacher yells at the kids-she tells me not at dd2, but because of some naughty ones the whole class gets it, and she finds him scary. She now says all of the work is too easy, she hands in everything early with 100% but is told to read some "stupid Spot" book on the table while the rest catch up. The teacher is male which she hasn't had before, seems very nice to me, she doesn't like noise and I imagine he is more powerful than her female teachers when raising voice. But maybe he is yelling a lot who knows.

I told her to ask politely for harder work, but she says she is too scared and everyone in the "handing in" line will hear, and told me about their Traffic Light system which will culminate in her being expelled for such impertinence!

am I going to have to go in already? How long should I wait do you think?

[lovecheese]

"Hits DD1, and says very cutting put-downs to me and DD1".

Probably not what you want to hear, but sounds like you need to tackle your daughter's behaviour and attitude before the school work. Sorry.

[Habanera]

Her behaviour at home reflects her frustration at school. It improves when she is kept very busy and stimulated, which she is already, out of school.

I will of course keep trying various things on her behaviour, but meanwhile there is an issue with school being too easy and how many months/weeks/years shall I leave her too scared to ask for the more challenging work that she loves.

[scurryfunge]

Could she take in some of her own reading material if she finishes work early to keep her occupied.

I agree that you need to tackle her behaviour and do not excuse her poor behaviour on being gifted.

Speak to the school about what they can offer her, rather than letting her ask.

[Habanera]

I tried to provide books (as I did and still do for DD1 in another school) but she told me (in a scream) they are not allowed. The books she is sent home with from school (kept in her school bag) are fine for her, but she is NOT Allowed to take out and read those in class (?why ?true)

Also she doesn't need to do any more reading. It would be better if she had extra work in a weaker area - if she's doing maths, an extra worksheet would go down well (honestly she likes working), even better if a bit harder or different from the work she's just found too easy. Dd1 has said she has seen various teachers pull out extra pages if asked. DD2 daren't ask, then comes home and rants.

I'm not excusing her behaviour on any grounds, sorry I mentioned it. I'll start another thread on my daughter's ratbag behaviour, in a different topic if you like, but meanwhile thanks Scurryfunge I'll consider that I perhaps should march into school to speak with teacher sooner rather than later. That's what I am wondering, how long to let her settle in (and him! god help him).

Teachers have been astonished at my tales of dd2 without exception, but they are backed up by dd1.

[scurryfunge]

I think speaking to the school is a good idea -maybe even query the idea of moving up a year -it is not uncommon to do so and it sounds like she will cope.

[DadAtLarge]

"Probably not what you want to hear, but sounds like you need to tackle your daughter's behaviour and attitude"
Funny how it's never the school's fault.

Every report we got from school about DS was glowing in its praise for his good behaviour. But gradually the dumb maths work he kept being given wore him down. By year 2 he was disruptive in the class and we started getting complaints.

It's then that we finally decided to act, told the school in no uncertain terms that they had to up their game and, long story short, he's back to how he was. The school funds a secondary school teacher to come in and work with him and I put in a fair bit of work as well to keep him engaged in maths.

I haven't been in MN for a while but for those who want to research my past threads on the subject or my detailed posts on G&T (I'm the county expert in the subject now), you can try site:mumsnet.com + "DadAtLarge" in Google.

My first post about DS is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/gifted_and_talented/760500-Help-Meeting-with-Head-to-discuss-how-school-is-failing

Teachers in the state sector (bar the rare exception) are pathetic at catering for higher ability students, the system is designed to average them down and as a parent you need to ask nicely first and then kick some ass if that ain't working.

"How long should I wait do you think?"
Till school opens tomorrow morning.

[lovecheese]

No, DadAtLarge, lack of manners and good behaviour are not the school's failing.

Are we to assume that because a child is G&T they should be excused from behaving properly?

[rabbitstew]

Hi, Habanera,

Just wanted to check: are you certain that she isn't allowed to get books out of her book bag, etc, and not that this isn't just another one of her anxieties, like talking to the teacher? My ds1 has tendencies along these lines - last year, he was incapable of asking for the toilet, let alone anything else. He also tended to get fixed ideas in his head about something being the case when it wasn't and would certainly be too scared to attempt to clarify the situation. He's a lot better this year - the teachers have been really helpful.

I thought the traffic light system was so that a child could indicate whether they had already mastered something, were still working on it, or were still not understanding? Why would she think she'd be expelled for indicating she understood something?

Ideally, you would find a way for your daughter to communicate better with her teacher. Could you explain to him her anxieties and beliefs and see if you can find a way to work around it? eg she could show him a card rather than actually having to speak to him if she would like something new to do? Or if he is aware, he could ask her directly (my ds1 didn't have a problem with being asked, just with approaching the teacher in any way to do the asking). I think your dd's teacher really does need the situation explaining to him - the poor man can hardly do the right thing by her if she won't speak, but might be able to come up with strategies to help if he understands there's a communication problem.

Not meaning to be impertinent, but is there any possibility she has ever so mild aspergers tendencies? Feel free to ignore that comment if you wish!

[DadAtLarge]

Unfortunately, schools aren't very clued up on just how much boring work can affect more able children.

I consider it a school failing.

In my case, once the school got their finger out on catering properly for DS, his behaviour reverted automatically to what it used to be.

We nipped it in the bud.

Other kids aren't so lucky.

They grow up, the bad behaviour becomes entrenched, they go to jail.

If more schools got more kicks up the backside fewer of the normally well behaved kids would go off the rails out of sheer boredom.

[DadAtLarge]

(Above message was for lovecheese)

[rabbitstew]

Or maybe the traffic light system at your dd's school is for bad behaviour and she thinks she'd get a red light for being an Oliver Twist?!

[SoupDragon]

But DadAtLarge, the school apparently has no complaints about her behaviour. It is her behaviour at home that is poor.

I wouod go and talk to the teacher to spdiscover how much of what your DD says is true and how much is either misunderstanding, not wanting to stand out or just what she wants to say.

[cory]

What rabbitstew said. If I had a pound for every problem that my dd had told me was incapable of solution because the school just wouldn't allow it/wouldn't listen to my suggestions/would think us rude to get in touch.... But tbh if I had all those pounds, perhaps I ought to donate them to the school as an apology for all the times I have jumped to conclusions.

What I found was that dd simply had no idea of the difference between a general rule and the kind of compromise that can be reached through a civilised conversation between adults. And having a chat with the teacher might also give you a clue to what there is about him that your dd finds scary: I remember doing the same with ds and his relief and surprise when I went home and explained that Mr X is simply very hard of hearing so he doesn't realise that when he raises his voice you can hear him at the other end of the street.

[Feenie]

"Teachers in the state sector (bar the rare exception) are pathetic at catering for higher ability students, the system is designed to average them down"

Just wanted you to know that I still refute this statement massively, DaL. MN teachers regularly discuss children working at level 6 in Y5 and Y6, and I wouldn't say we are all rare exceptions.

As you were.

[Habanera]

Thanks, DadatLarge will look up those links. Oliver Twist is right, we were making up a song along the lines of Food Glorious Food last night, but about the glories of sums and worksheets. The traffic lights seem to be for behaviour and she was concerned that it culminated in being expelled. I had to smile a bit then, mean as she can be in private, she is good at school. Too good I now see. How long will it last.

I'm proud of her now, apparently today she gave up her playtime to speaK to the TA as the teacher was away. So she did overcome her fears to some extent, assertiveness in the classroom is an issue- but nothing in my experiences so far with her or DD1 who is now in Y6 has convinced that anyone listens to what they say. They also lay themselves open to bullying if overheard by the other children. Perhaps I could get her to write a letter.

I think children should be given work of the right level for them, in whatever topic-for example she would need easier large motor skills than average for age. I think accelerating her to a new year group would be detrimental to her physical activity-my y6 DD1 who is only 10 just sits out all playtimes now to fit in with her anti-PE friends. Schools spend plenty of time testing them, why don't they even use their own results. I expect she does have slight asperger's tendencies but overcomes them and functions well when it suits her.

[Feenie]

"I think children should be given work of the right level for them"

You're absolutely right, Habanera, and I think you should ask the school to show you how they are meeting her needs in terms of work provided.

[richmal]

This is my first go on mumsnet, but here goes.
i just wanted to ask OP how their DD got 4a in KS1. I ask because I was told by my DD's school they could only give up to level 3. I was unconvinced by this, so I phoned LEA and they confirmed in KS1 sats done in year 2 this was the highest that a child could be assesed at.

[Feenie]

When was this? Since 2005, Ks1 assessment has been teacher assessment only - lots of different evidence supported by the test result. The test can only assess to level 3, but there is no ceiling on the final teacher assessment.

[Feenie]

This links to the 2011 KS1 ARA - the legal assessment document that schools have to follow (it's published every year).

It says:
At level 4: For children working above the level of the tasks and tests, teachers may also use the optional tasks available on the QCDA website at www.mycurriculum.com, as well as using the level 3 tests and writing tasks.

Although optional tasks to use to assess level 4 KS1 children have not always been available, advice has always been given on how to assess children at level 4.

[Goblinchild]

I agree, my daughter was a level 4 reader and writer at the end of Y2, and that was more than a decade ago.

[BalloonSlayer]

richmal I think it depends on the school. Our school don't go higher than 3 either.

DD's Yr 1 teacher (it was a yr 1/2 class) said if she had taken her SATS at the end of year 1 she'd have got a level 3. When she did do them at the end of year 2 she got all 3s. If it was possible to get higher, I think she might have done so. However, I expect even DD's school would have made an exception for a truly gifted child, which DD is not.

OP, I'd go in with your DD and explain she is a stickler for rules and getting herself in a panic over doing the right thing. She, you and the teacher should be able to think of a way she can ask for harder stuff and she'll feel better about doing it if she knows it was agreed with you there. Like the others, I would imagine there is a slight panicky exaggeration going on (my DD has these histrionics, it always turns out the teacher never said anything of the sort) - eg why was a Spot book even in a year 3/4 classroom?

[Feenie]

It does not depend on the school, and if you've been told any different then your school isn't fulfilling ots lrgal obligations and should be challenged.

[Feenie]

That should of course say 'its legal obligations' - bloody phone.

It's a statutory document - schools don't get to choose whether to take any notice or not.

[rabbitstew]

Habanera - well done on your dd for talking to the TA. It's a shame, the thing about bullying if a child is seen to be ahead. It hasn't happened at all at my dss' school, yet (they haven't been all the way through, so I can't hand on heart say it will never happen as the children get older). In fact, if anything so far it seems to be something the other children are impressed by, which somewhat surprised me - treated in a similar way to the admiration children tend to have for children who are physically capable (which ds1 most certainly isn't!). I think the school very much fosters that attitude, though - that we should celebrate each others' successes and support each other. Ds1 isn't teased or bullied for his physical or social difficulties, either, although he tends to be at the receiving end of quite a bit of mother henning from some of the girls from time to time, which he doesn't object to. Maybe that's his advantage over your dd - that it's more OK for boys to be a little bit awkward and anxious???

[Longtalljosie]

I had a male teacher at primary school - actually, I didn't, but he was the class next door and I spoke to him a fair bit but was terrified of him. He got cross with me once about something that was totally not my fault and I was all over the place about it. It's not fair that children get in so much of a tizz about upsetting male teachers but I think that is very much the case and if your DD is scared when he gets cross (even if not at her) she may be stressed by the thought of doing anything out of the ordinary because she doesn't yet have the maturity to differentiate between an unusual request which is fair enough, and one which is likely to land the requestee in trouble.

I think you are going to have to go in. Not to complain, but just to help the teacher understand your DD better. I understand that she's acting up because she's bored - and I agree that stretching her more at school will make her behaviour better - but clearly you're going to have to make it clear what's acceptable at home as well. But I'm sure you know that.