Civil service applications

[daisyintheclouds]

I have a background as a policy manager in the voluntary sector. I am interested in applying to policy roles in the civil service (G7 or SEO) but feel I would benefit from some training on meeting the competencies in the civil service framework and about the interview process. Do you know if the CS recruitment team or a partner organisation hold sessions or workshops?

I have looked at the competency framework and tried to write answers that align with the grade I am applying for. I was disappointed yesterday to be sifted out following assessment of the lead competency (leading and communicating). I scored a 3. So I know I must be doing something wrong but unsure what this is.

[Indulgence]

So far as I know, CS Recruitment don't do workshops. However, when there is a large scale recruitment in a particular area, maybe local job centres may hold something? It's worth contacting them to ask.

In terms of writing your competences, did you keep it within 250 words and write in the STAR format, with a focus on what you did and contributed to. Based on your background, I'm sure you have the experience - it's just about tweaking it to match the framework.

[jewel1968]

Some tips from me:

• focus on what you did and avoid saying we
• tell a story. For example there was a particular problem or situation and you had to consider all the elements of the problem. You had to engage others and persuade them to do X, y or z. You worked together to solve the problem and the result was and continues to be..... Show the impact of your actions and how you got others on board.
• read the competency framework and ask yourself if your example ticks all the boxes. There is always an element of judgement but if you can illustrate your significant role in the situation.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situation,_task,_action,_result

www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-service-competency-framework

[daisyintheclouds]

Thanks for your feedback. For all the examples I wrote close to 250 words but not over and used the STAR model.

Having re-read the example, I wonder if I spent too much time on the context explaining the policy issue I was dealing with, and not enough on what I did and how it led to a positive outcome.

Generally, is it better to focus on one aspect of a project and to talk in depth about how you overcame a particular challenge or issue, rather than try to address the project as a whole?

I applied a couple of years ago and feedback on the 'leading and communicating' competency that time was that it sounded too much like collaborative working. So this could be the issue this time too as I know that at G7 level they are looking for strong leadership skills.

[Indulgence]

Yes, the bulk of your example should be what you did / the action you took which led to an end result. And always try to quantify that end result with figures.

I would also focus on a particular aspect of a project, rather than the project as a whole.

[Isleepinahedgefund]

I’ve been far too involved in civil service recruitment the last few weeks!

Get hold of the competency framework for the grade you are applying for, the behaviours required are different at different levels. They don’t run workshops for external staff, which is a shame as competency based recruitment is a bit of an art form in itself. Fortunately the framework is changing to something called “success profiles”, which is better as it allows you to bring in more of your other experience. Some departments are using this, some aren’t yet, so it depends where you’re applying - but worth knowing as they need to be approached slightly differently.

If you know someone who works in the department you’re applying for, ask them if you can see the training material given to staff about competencies - it’s not secret.

For competencies -

Make sure your examples do match the competencies (your feedback about the leading one was the same tip really).
Refer to the job advert and use examples that roughly demonstrate the desired skills.
Make sure when you write it your examples have a beginning, a middle and an end - what you did, how you did it, what the outcome was.
Make sure it’s clear why you’re using this example -amazing how many people fluff about not clarifying this.
Use the most focussed examples you can.
Make sure your writing style is confident.
Run it by someone before you send it off if you can.

For the interview (I’ve just interviewed a load of people)

For competencies, stick to the examples you used on the form. You don’t get brownie points for telling us something different. The examples on your form are presumably your best so just stick to them.
Don’t be too rehearsed, it doesn’t come across well, but make sure you know your stuff.
If you can take in notes or your application form, do. We thought those people looked prepared, and it gave a good impression.
Don’t assume anyone knows what you’re talking about, even if you know they do - chances are at least one panel member won’t. For example, one person assumed they didn’t need to explain anything about that they do in their current job because it’s a job I’ve already done before, but didn’t take into account that the other panel members had no idea about it.
Don’t use acronyms, jargon etc. Explain it in full.
Remember you don’t have to stick to 250 words in the interview!
Listen to the question and answer it.
Make sure to be clear about why this is a good example of whatever - for example, making decisions - say at the start what the decision was that you needed to make..... amazing how often people don’t!
If you’re asked strength based questions “what will you bring to the role etc”, they are looking for your natural response and enthusiasm - don’t parrot classi “job interview” things like being a team player blah blah blah, make it an accurate and personal sounding appraisal of your own strengths. We liked the people who did this, and frankly the others sent us to sleep!
Again for those type of questions, if you’re asked to describe something you’re passionate about, make sure it really is something you’re passionate about - usually it’s something outside work. They’re looking for your response, not the subject, so don’t feel you have to restrict yourself to work.

[daisyintheclouds]

Thanks for your detailed reply PP. That’s immensely helpful. I will take on board all your comments when preparing my competency statements and for interview.

Final question I promise. As an external applicant do you think it’s more important to get a foot in the door than to wait for the perfect role in your preferred department? I’m just conscious that if I apply to 6 roles in different depts then it may look a bit scatter gun. Although I’d be happy initially to work on most social policy issues.

[daisychain01]

As an external applicant do you think it’s more important to get a foot in the door than to wait for the perfect role in your preferred department?

There is definitely merit in getting your foot in the door, however if you do apply for multiple roles, be aware of the grade of roles you're applying for, and try to be as consistent as you can, i.e don't go for something too junior to get in. It's all too easy to get pigeonholed into a grade, and find that it's subsequently difficult to get up to the next rung. This is more the case the higher up the ladder you go for example moving into a management level role.

[Isleepinahedgefund]

Agree with PP about it being pigeonholed so get in as high as possible. You can’t make big jumps up the grades once you’re in, so if you want G7 don’t go in at EO as you’ll have to progress up the in between grades to G7. If you go in lower than you want, don’t go for anything more than one grade lower than you want. I coach people at work and most want to move up from the junior grades into HEO and above, and it really is quite a challenge sometimes, whereas moving up from HEO is much easier providing there are the opportunities available. It seems to me there is a bit of a glass ceiling between EO and HEO, especially in my department!

No harm in applying for multiple roles, it’s not like credit checks where the more applications you make the less chance of being accepted!

The other thing about getting in somewhere is that there are many more jobs advertised either cross government or internal. I had a look at what’s on offer in my dept. yesterday, and there were two entry level jobs externally - all the higher grade jobs were either civil service only or internal only due to technical requirements that you don’t have an opportunity to learn past a certain job, e.g. SEO technical specialist for which the training is only offered in the HEO posts in the same department and there is no external equivalent because it’s a statutory government function.

There’s a lot of competition across civil service now too, as most departments have been trimmed down and there are lots of surplus staff. We certainly got a huge amount of applications per post for our HEO jobs even though they’re fixed term contracts, and the vast majority are from existing civil servants.

[daisyintheclouds]

I have been advised to aim for G7 by my mentor and line manager. Having looked at the competency framework, this most closely aligns with my current level of responsibilities and I feel would also give me the stretch I’m looking for. I would consider SEO but it would be quite a large salary drop as external people start on the bottom of the pay band.

I see a ton of jobs being advertised continuously for DExEU. Good opportunity or best to avoid?

[daisychain01]

I would consider SEO but it would be quite a large salary drop as external people start on the bottom of the pay band

Not necessarily. Not sure where you got this idea from. As an external candidate, normally coming in from Industry, they are just as likely to have an opportunity to discuss salary level as anyone else as part of the recruitment process.

[jewel1968]

I don't work in DExEU but closely with. Hardest job I have ever done but also fascinating.

[Wigeon]

Totally agree with hedgefund’s advice.

Can I ask which your preferred dept is?

It’s pretty hard to go straight in as a G7 from outside because I need my G7s to know about civil service basics (drafting PQs, ministerial briefings, knowing how to navigate Whitehall, what a select committee is, how govt finance works, civil service approach to performance mgmt etc etc etc). Personally, unless you have unique skills which they are desperate for, it might be better to go for SEO, get a good grounding in civil service basics, prove your worth, then get prompted quickly - so much easier as an internal candidate.

[Wigeon]

Agree you are in quite a good position to argue you don’t want to start on bottom of SEO pay scale.

DEXEU - loadsa jobs cos they need loadsa people really quickly, and there is high churn because it’s a very hectic environment to work in. And plenty of civil servsnts don’t want to touch it with a barge pole. But lots of opportunities given they are so desperate for people...

[daisyintheclouds]

Thanks for all your advice. I really appreciate it. I'm finding this a bit daunting so I've arranged for some mentoring from someone I know in the civil service.

I'm sure on some of the jobs ads that I've read recently that external candidates are appointed at the bottom of the pay band, but I'm glad to hear that this isn't always the case.

I currently work for a NDPB (unfortunately not one on the civil service list) so I'm probably not as green as some people coming into the civil service in terms of understanding Whitehall, Select Committees etc. Although I admit I'll have a lot to learn.

I'm happy to look at both G7 and SEO roles. I have a background in social policy. Originally I was thinking of DfE but many of their roles are now based outside of London. I'd also be open to DCMS, MHCLG, Cabinet Office and maybe also Home Office or DHSE. So in theory plenty of choice.

To be honest, I'd rather stay away from Brexit related roles. I think these would be particularly challenging for someone coming in from the outside, and I enjoy getting to know a policy issue in depth rather than jumping quickly from one to another.

[BestIsWest]

External people don’t always start at bottom of payband. I came in at fairly near the top of mine.

[daisyintheclouds]

Thanks BestIsWest. Out of interest, do they ask for current salary when making an offer? I can see that there's no place that they ask for this on the application form.

[BestIsWest]

I had a preliminary phone interview (technical role rather than policy though) and yes, they asked current salary and what I was looking for and the offer was within a few hundred.

[DeathBySnoring]

With all due respect I disagree with Widgeon There aren't that many jobs in the CS at G7 where you need to understand all those things apart from performance management. I did as an SEO, that was my job, but the G7s and G6s I was advising didn't. My job was to brief them on procedure and protocol and guide them through. Although I've written more No10 briefs than I care to remember. I once considered doing that thing where the first letter in every paragraph read "David Cameron is a twat" but decided against it...

Certainly my department has recruited external G7s who have fitted in extremely well. I'm a G7 and haven't had to draft a response to a PQ or a ministerial briefing in my current role. We have specialist teams to do that when necessary, which isn't often. And not every CS works in Whitehall or needs to know how to navigate it. There are very many of us working outside London where the machinations of Whitehall have very little impact. If there is an issue it will be fed through the line management chain.

Go for G7 OP. And yes avoid DExEU. Huge turnover of staff and incredibly stressful by all accounts. Although you might stand a good chance of getting a G7 post and then moving on elsewhere as soon as you can. Best of luck!

[Wigeon]

DeathbySnoring - you’re right, I should have qualified my advice by saying that it applies to central government policy roles in ministerial-serving policy teams, which is what it sounds like the OP is interested in. And completely appreciate that most civil servants aren’t in fact in those roles, given most of the civil service in numbers is operational and outside London, like border force and jobcentre staff.

[DeathBySnoring]

Widgeon whilst I agree that most operational CS staff are based outside London, as they have to be to deliver local services, there are still very many people of all grades - including Director level - involved in policy roles who are also based outside London. In particular DWP and HMRC based in Leeds and Newcastle and DHSC based in Leeds. There may well be others but these are the 3 departments I have experience of. It is something that my own department is working hard to change - that you don't have to be London based to take up a policy role. Sorry for the massive paragraph, for some reason I can't enter spaces to break up the block of text...

[Wigeon]

DeathBy: I know! My own Whitehall department has a major office in the north, and one my direct reportees is based there! And I currently work on a project with another central govt department and my counterpart is also based in that department’s north office (different city to my dept’s northern office)! I only said “most of the civil service in numbers is operational and outside London”, which is true.

[DeathBySnoring]

Yep, don't disagree at all. Beginning to wonder if we know each other....

[daisyintheclouds]

I’ve found this a fascinating thread. I’ve really enjoyed hearing about your experiences of working in and moving up within the civil service. So thank you for all your comments and guidance.

I’m going to apply for both G7 and SEO policy roles and leave it up to the recruiting manager to decide where I’d best be placed. This seems like a good plan of action as there’s no limit on the no of roles I can apply to.

I’ve noticed in reviewing job ads that many of the policy roles are Fixed Term Appointments. I presume this is because policy making is a fast moving area and a specific role is unlikely to be needed beyond a 2 year period. Are there any drawbacks to being on a FTA? Is it a good way into the civil service with a view to looking for promotion/internal transfer?

[Wigeon]

Hm, how long are the FTAs for? It won’t be because policy roles are specific at all - there’s always a need for, say, an aviation regulation team at Dept for Transport, or a homelessness policy team at MHDLG. Even though specific projects obviously change, (permanent) people’s job roles very often flex over time. Unless it is genuinely a role relating to a very specific time limited project which requires lots of extra staff who you don’t think you will be able to redeploy onto other projects.

It might be because the department’s policy is to always give external recruits a FTA contract as frankly you can then easily get rid of them, either because you don’t rate them that highly, or because you need to keep costs down at a later date, and much much easier to just not renew an FTA appointment than to make anyone permanent, redundant.

I would ask the individual recruiting manager why the job has been advertised as an FTA and what possibilities there are for extension of the FTA or conversion to permanency once in post. It would be fine to ask before you apply - I wouldn’t be that surprised if someone asked me that (as long as they sounded genuinely interested in the actual job!).

[butlerswharf]

Late to this thread but I agree with all the great advice given already.

It's so lovely to read a helpful and non-contentious thread!