ludicrous indep/state dilemma

[FurrowedBrow]

I'm a regular in disguise .
DS, who is three, has just been offered a nursery place at the great indep school (X) around the corner.
He has also got a place at the state primary (Y) where his older sister goes (she is very happy there and it's a lovely school, outstanding Ofsted etc)
Thing is, X really is the place we've earmarked as our fantasy answer for secondary (not least bcs we have no good state alternatives at all at that point).
I am now thinking about how much more difficult it will be to get them both in to X later (and it is incredibly oversubscribed at every entry point). Obv if DS goes, DD's chances of a place shoot up.
If we turn X down, and neither child gets in later, ie when they're up against all the other sibs/prep school kids, will we think we made the wrong decision? Almost certainly yes.
We can afford it, just.
I do very much love the state school and hate the idea that I am contemplating passing on it.
I don't really know what to do. I know it's a 'good' problem to be wrestling with, but right now tbh I wish I had fewer choices.
Any advice welcome.

[titchy]

How old is dd? Does prep school guarantee places for siblings (many don't BTW)? What age does X go up to?

I'd say if X guarantees sib priority and goes up to 16/18 then take the place you have for ds. Once he's there you can make the decision about when to move dd, maybe straight away, maybe at end Yr 2 or end yr 6.

Oh and does having a nursery place guarantee a place at pre-prep and prep bit?

[HonoriaGlossop]

If you really are convinced they might not get in at secondary age, and you CAN afford to send them private now, then I guess the obvious answer is to send them private because it guarantees that ideal secondary place you wanted. Agree with titchy that you could get ds in first then decide on the right time for your dd.

If it is possible they could get in ok at secondary level then if this was me I would save the money and send them to state primary first.

[DarrellRivers]

If you are going to worry about this for several years, then maybe it is worth the money to send your DS to the private nursery.
That's what swung it for me in the end.
I don't have to worry my arse off about all the options
Some research done shows that people are happier the fewer the options they have, you need a few obviously, but not too many.
Good luck

[FurrowedBrow]

I'm so grateful for your replies.
DD is 6.
X goes up to 18.
No, X doesn't guarantee siblings places, but gives 'particularly careful consideration' to them, which sounds encouraging.
Nursery children at X automatically go into the pre-prep, but the progression into the junior school at end of y2 depends on meeting entry criteria. But I think it's fairly routine.
It is possible they would both get in at secondary level, a fair handful of children from the state primary manage it every year, but there's no way of knowing whether this would happen for our two... whereas this feels like a safe bet.
DarrellR, that's the thing. In a way it was silly of us to apply for this nursery place at X, it was meant to be a backup in case the Y place fell though. Now we're in a right old pickle. I keep thinking about dropping off every morning for a few years at 2 sep schools, maybe 10 mins' walk from each other: one school starts at 8.50, the other at 8.45... tiny detail, but indicative of the general mindmelt.

[Tommy]

Just to throw another idea in - by the time your children get to secondary level, the state schools may have improved to the point that you want to send them there

[FurrowedBrow]

Now that would be ideal, but I daren't bank on it

[FurrowedBrow]

DD has come home from her state primary, first day back after halfterm, full of energy and chatter...

Earlier today I was thinking 'sod it, let's send DS to the independent school, it's the solution,' now I'm thinking: do I really want to send him somewhere that might be more of a hothouse, can't he just go to Y and have a lovely happy unpressured time? And in any case -- all that cash...

what are we doing? How much help/tutoring do you have to do at the end of primary to get them into a decent indep? We are in N London btw.

Any other opinions? It helps so much to hear what other people think/would do/have done

[pralinegirl]

I do sympathise FurrowedBrow with the preference for knowing what will happen, or is likely to, and choice sometimes being difficult. Ironically, having never considered independent primary for DS, our state school being oversubscribed and not finding out until late april if DS has been lucky, has led us into looking at other options, so that he now has been offered a place at a local independent school. I'm keener than DH, part of me would love to be able to know thats where he's going, tell him so (he keeps asking about school!)and start planning and to hell with worrying about april. But its a lot of money and we may need this for secondary, as the choices there locally are much much worse. So DH and I have agreed to hold place at private school in reserve, as it were, pay the deposit and see what he's offered later and take it from there. But its easier for him, he didn't see the independent school and underachieved at his own school (he'd readily admit this!)Good luck!

[titchy]

I wouldn't worry about the different starting times. In a couple of years dd will be old enough to be left in the playgound without you there which would give you time to walk to X.

I guess the question is how confident are you of both dcs being able to pass entrance exam/whatever they have to get into the secondary. If you're uncertain then I'd say go with the place at X for ds; keep dd where she is at least till the end of yr 2 or 3 (if eh is in yr 2 now), then review.

[FurrowedBrow]

I'm not at all confident either of them will walk into X at secondary. But they both seem bright, and children from Y get in every year -- or maybe another school will suit them better later in any case...

I'm balancing DS having a very pressurised academic childhood against both children getting a golden ticket to the 'secondary of our dreams', and it strikes me that in the next seven years anything could change; head teachers, exam results, dd might set her heart on being a ballet dancer -- anything.

Right now I'm minded to stick with the state primary. I'd love DS to have the same experience as DD.

[fridayschild]

We sent DS1 to an academic pre-prep when he was 3. They advertised learning through play but it turned out they wanted to teach him to write. He hated it and we moved him to a state primary. It's good, got OFSTED outstanding for the early years section. He loves it there (except when they want to teach him to write, of course). I think he will do better at the state school than if he had stayed at the pre-prep.

But we too have a looming issue with secondaries. The state secondaries in our borough are really unimpressive, so I think the boys need to go to a private secondary school. At the moment we are think we will move them to a decent local prep school when they are 7, which gets some children into the uber-competitive south London public schools, and others into schools which are not quite such hothouses. Obviously we have to get them in, but I think there will be one or two vacancies each year after the start at age 7, so if our nerve held we could stay on the waiting list and they could carry on at our lovely local state school for a bit longer.

So my questions for you

• is X the right school for your little boy right now?
• can either child get into X at some other time, aged 7 or 8?

[TheDullWitch]

I'd send him to the state school, bank the money (£9K a year x 9 years until secondary school = £80K at least?) and invest a little bit of it in a tutor when both kids get to 9-10 to coach them thru the tests.

My son transfered from state primary to (v competitive) private secondary in Sept. I'm so glad he had the state primary behind him as these private from birth kids live in such an unnatural bubble of privilege. The prep school kids are a posher and smoother but within a year they are all pretty similar standard.

Also if a child can get into the nursery or junior when there are far fewer places, he will easily get into the senior school when there are 100- 120 places.

[roisin]

I think if you're basically happy with the primary you've got, but are worried about entry at 11; a good compromise is to enquire about entry at age 9.

Many schools have places that come up during the juniors time, and (depending on the school) they tend not to be so selective at that point.

That then gives the children chance to settle in and get used to the ethos and expectations, and for the school to help them catch up/get up to speed ready for 11+.

And it it's clear that they are not suited to that school, you have time to investigate other options.

But going at 9 rather than 3 obviously saves you 6 yrs worth of school fees!

[mrsruffallo]

I would stick with the state primary. It seems a shame to send them to different schools.

[Judy1234]

Ours went at 4 on the basis it may be slightly easier to get them in at 4 than 11. I still believe that to be so. My daughter nearly left at 11 (mildly dyslexic) so the plan nearly didn't work but she was very popular, sporty and music and gave a lot to the school and just scraped through at 11 and then did very well so yes it paid off. My sister's done the same. My brother's 2,nearly 3 year old just passed to go to his sister's school (huge rejoicing) so they're all set up to 18 now, the 4 cousins and I do think it's a relief for the parents.

Also your girl might surely get an occasional place to move to where her brother is at other than the normal entry time too so then they woudl be together.

[FurrowedBrow]

Lots of useful advice here, thanks to everyone who has posted.
I'm feeling increasingly sure that we will turn the independent offer down.
Going round in a few days time for a refresher tour with the head, which I'm sure will make us wobble a bit as we gaze again on the verdant rugby pitches and whatnot, but we simply can't fault the state primary, DD is so lucky to be there, it's a good solid well-respected school with a lovely warm atmos and room for fun, and its leavers go on to interesting places. Our instinct is to place our trust in that. Who knows whether X will be the right place for either DC in 7 yrs time?

[MrsGuyOfGisbourne]

FB - sympathise with your dilemma. We had a similar dilemma with DS1. We opted for the state primary decided to bank the cash and decide when they got to secondary. Now DS1 has been offered places at the two local top independents. We will never know for sure if we jumoed the right way - he loves learning and has found it frustrating at times at his local school in a class of 30, not all of whom want to learn. If we had known what type of boy he would be, we may have opted for the independent to begin with, but we thought we would see how his interests and aptitudes developed.

[mrsgboring]

When I began the thread I thought, oh yes, take the X place, but that's a panic kneejerk reaction to "what will I do in 7 years time?" Which is silly, as you could have moved house, or anything by then.

Sounds to me like your post really says "I wish I hadn't got this X place because now I'm worrying it's the more prudent option." If you wish you hadn't got it, don't take it.

[Anchovy]

We have sort of done something similar, (although in our case Y is a small very local non selective private school, which, being non selective means that it does in some sense get the children who didn't get into the selective schools). But like you we had the option of getting children into highly academic schools at 3/4 which they could stay in until 18. (We're in SW London, which I suspect is similar).

Relevant consideration for us:

1. We love the school (Y). It is extremely responsive to parent needs, very strong on the PHSE side and full of children from local streets, which matters a lot to us. The academic side is absolutely fine, the DCs are bright kids (I think!) - we have no sense of it being a "second best" - I think that is important, that it is a positive choice for us.

1. Where we live, the DCs will inevitably have to do an exam to get into a school at 11. I think we can make a better choice at 11 for the school that is best suited to them (ie we can use the "too much choice" to our advantage). Put another way, the school you think of as your "dream secondary" when your DS is 3 may not actually be so - it may change and so may your children.

1. I am not a particular fan of children being in the same school from 3-18 and we have deliberately steered away from this. No particular reason. I went to a number of schools, because we moved twice when I was small and I was absolutely fine with that - that I think gives me the perspective that being in the same school all the way through is a bit "overly cosy".

I'm quite happy for DS to have a change at 11, to go into a new environment, one that we have chosen for him to suit him and where they have chosen him because he fits in with them. I currently don't know what that school will be (and will stress about that at a later date!)

HTH

[Squiffy]

Presumably you can defer his place at the state school and go in Sept 09 for the reception year rather than the nursery year?

If so I would recommend that you enrol DS in private school. That will give you a full year to compare his first year experience at X with the experience your DD had at Y.

Then you have the basis on which to decide whether to move him or not in 09. The downside to this will be that he might miss the new friends he makes if you do switch next year (but he will miss them even more keenly if he starts at Y and switches schools at a later date to get into X). But chances are you will love the private school too in which case he stays, job done.

I would do that, esp if the state secondary schools are a bit ropey. Not worth the gamble.

BTW My DS goes to a nursery and the starting time is officially 8.30 but you drop them off in the classrooms any time after 8.10 - you might find similar at X.

[Judy1234]

A huge number of girls enter the schools my daughters went to (Habs and North London) at 11+ from the state sector. I didn't notice any difference between the children and as they all grew up no difference between them at all - I could not say at 17 who had been to a state primary and who hadn't.

The reason I, my brothre and sister have all gone for get them in as young as you can thing is I do think it made it easier. I don't think my eldest would have passed the exam at 11 for her school if she had been an extrenal candidate. We were told to sit her for other schools at 11 and she didn't quite pass for her school but they let her stay as about pass mark and had given a lot to the school and already there so it worked for us and the school is preparing them for 11+ exams anyway which not all state primaries do (and we could afford it and I liked the schools, use of swimming pools at weekends, grounds, lakes, nice ambience and stuff which our local state schools at primary level don't h ave)