Grammar School - contextual offer time?

[Keepyourkidsafe]

In light of recent changes to make & increase use of contextual offers in order to level the playing field for Oxbridge entry, I am at a cross roads as I am considering what many public school parents have been contemplating for some time......stopping the endless struggle & sacrifices to pay school fees and divert the funds to buying a house in an eye watering expensive grammar catchment area.

This way we will not be affected by the impact of contextual offers and still have a higher disproportionate chance of securing a top/Oxbridge university.....we can spend the saved cash on luxuries like cars, holidays, regular visits to restaurants, designer clothes, etc....

It seems like an obvious choice, right?
However, I am in a moral dilemma as it feels wrong to potential take places from other less fortunate kids that would otherwise have got our places (which we would have secured via additional support of paid tuition).

Is it fair that I and many others like me can buy our way to grammar schools by paying through our teeth for houses in the right catchment areas and extra tuition?
This isn't a new phenomenon but there are many like me about to join the grammar system, making it even more competitive, so we do not suffer from the impact of contextual offers.

My question is should grammar schools also be treated in the same way as independent schools and have quotas applied as they are now more disproportionately represented at Oxbridge and leading universities.

[Seeline]

I don't think grammar school children get contextual offers either....

[NewIdeasToday]

You can’t buy your way into Oxford or Cambridge either way.

I think you need to think differently about this. Your aim as a parent should be to make sure your child has an interesting and stretching education and other opportunities in life to help them grow into a well rounded adult. Which choices would contribute to that?

[EvilPea]

I live in a grammar area. You won’t be taking a place from a “poor less fortunate” child. Only those heavily tutored get in, which means the score goes up so the tutoring gets more intense the next year and so on and so on.
It is cost prohibitive with private schools also offering tutoring there’s already that advantage (or disadvantage).

However even tutoring does not guarantee a place on the day. Even a child who should walk it, may not on the day and you cannot appeal a bad day.

[skeggycaggy]

I once saw a graph showing the grammar school admissions by ward from across the borough of Trafford. It was laughable how blatantly it was tied to affluence - anyone who knows Trafford would be able to instantly place the wards in order for where the majority of the kids came from...

Anyway. I think you should research contextual offers OP if that’s what you are going to base your schooling decisions on. Being at a grammar school will make no difference at all.

[Clymene]

Sorry, your kid is in primary and you're planning their oxbridge education?

Are you planning on giving them any say in this?

[UserTwice]

My DC go to a comp that gets national average type results (i.e. not the type of school that OP will be attempting to buy in the catchment of). Students still don't get contextual offers. So I can't see how OP's plan will work.

If you want to get a contextual offer you'll have to send your children to a struggling school in a deprived area with very poor results and then top up with lots of tutoring/extra curricular etc. But I can't imagine any parent deliberately doing that "just" for an Oxbridge place (and clearly your DC might not be Oxbridge material or want to go there anyway).

[wooliewoo]

Well buying a house in "an eyewateringly expensive grammar catchment " won't work as contextual offers work by disadvantaged postcode! Or going to a school that doesn't normally sent many kids on to University

[wydlondon]

But private schools are not only about Oxbridge offers though, people are also paying for facilities, activities, peer groups, smaller class, teaching etc. The end goal shouldn't only be about Oxbridge as that is unpredictable. There are far more qualified applicants than there are places from all sectors. In any case, some privates are quoting 25% and above on Oxbridge or Ivy League places, and no one really "suffers" from contextual offers.

High performing schools in leafy areas do not benefit from easier entry. Some grammars get lots of Oxbridge offers because they heavily select to begin with,. Would parents send children to a low performing school in a depraved area to take perceived "advantage" of contextual offer?

Morality of it doesn't really come into play if you are thinking about selective schools (whether by money or test or both) anyway. I wouldn't overthink it, just have a look at the schools and see which ones you are happy with and prep accordingly.

[Oohhhbetty]

If Oxbridge is your aim your best line of parenting would be to put your children in to a comp in a deprived area and then tutor them out of school and pay for one-2-one admissions help from an oxbridge graduate.

If happy children is your aim then find a nice community to live in, where they can have local friends, pick a good-enough school in whatever sector and let them have a childhood rather than just an education.

[Keepyourkidsafe]

Apologies but I think I was not clear in my post, I am not trying to benefit from contextual offers

What I was trying to say is that I am aware the Grammar schools do NOT get contextual offers like deprived school student or someone coming from deprived postcode

My point is that I am about to switch to the Grammar system as their quota for Oxbridge entry has not been reduced in the same way as the fee paying Independent sector has due to contextual offers even though it has an over representation within Oxbridge......however, no one is tackling this inequality

Grammar parents do not pay fees directly to the school however, they end up spending large sums to gain entry to Grammar schools via tuition and high property prices - so in effect, they are paying to gain the advantage that the Grammar system offers....
.....so is it fair that they are not treated in the same way as fee paying independent schools by reducing their Oxbridge offers in the same way as we are seeing for fee paying Independent schools?
I wonder if this might change as surely this inequality must be addressed some time in the future?

My dilemma is, do I move my DCs to a Grammar school

[Oohhhbetty]

@Keepyourkidsafe
Have you found a particular grammar school that you like? Every school (whatever sector) has different feel and a different pro and con list. If you have found one that you like and you feel morally icky about it, then make a donation to a local charity (doesn't have to be the local comp as they are often better funded than grammar schools.)
I think that morally there is no difference to paying school fees, paying to live next to a fabulous comp, or paying to tutor for 11plus so just pick a school your child will be happy in, count your blessings, and 'give back' to the world in some way either physically or financially.

[UserTwice]

"Disadvantaged postcodes" are those where typically there is low progression rates into higher education from those who live there.
Schools where a low number of students progress to higher education (regardless of where these students live) are also targeted for contextual offers.

Contextual offers can also be offered on an individual basis - for example to children in care, children who are refugees or children from low socio-economic groups. But presumably OP's children don't fall into any of these categories.

[Oohhhbetty]

@peteneras
Schools which have a washing machine where they wash clothes for children who don't have a washing machine at home.
Schools where one or more parent might be in prison.
Schools were most pupils are on FSM.
Schools where teachers went out on foot during pandemic to deliver printed sheets as there was no technology for children to learn on.
Schools where 75% of children speak English as a second language.
Schools with knife crime.
Schools with children who have been bullied in to county lines dealing.

Often the teachers in these schools are amongst the best in the country (yes, equal even to your favourite Eton.) But they are dealing with many, many things beyond a basic academic education. I found your post deeply revolting and will be reporting it.

[Sunbelievable]

Don't be so deliberately and bloody obtuse @peteneras

[Sunbelievable]

Please shut up @peteneras

If you want to keep reposing the same vile post, we'll just keep reporting it and I imagine MN will keep deleting it.

You give such a bad name to public schools.

[nagrama]

Oxbridge is absolutely not the be all and end all (no chip, I was educated there myself). A really good school will recognise this - depending on what your child wants to study and what they're like, it might well be that another option is better - whether that's Ivy League or just a better/different course in another UK university. I'd be wary of a school that tries too hard to trumpet its Oxbridge figures - it's much more nuanced than that, and a school should have the confidence to say so. We chose indie over grammar and it was about lots of factors - Oxbridge was not one of them. I'm absolutely confident that when my kids reach that stage, the school will support them to apply for the best university course for them, whether Oxbridge or not. No way do I think that the very many excellent aspects of their education are outweighed by the possibility that they'll find it a bit tougher to get an Oxbridge place. Your choice should depend on the schools available to you. How will you feel if you go for the grammar and your child then 'fails' to get into Oxbridge? Will you be gutted that you didn't go for the other benefits of the indie? Or, will you think that actually the education they'll have received is pretty comparable? That should be the basis of your decision - not the Oxbridge stats.

[Africa2go]

OP, can only speak for Trafford as has already been mentioned, you're being very presumptuous. It is fiercely competitive to get a place at the local grammars and "big house + tutoring" doesn't guarantee you a place. Lots of people take that gamble and it doesn't work.

It's really quite arrogant to think that there is somehow a financial route to guaranteeing a place at Oxbridge. There isn't.

[EvilPea]

Tutoring and moving to a grammar area doesn’t guarantee entry. If your child has a bad day, they have a bad day. It won’t win an appeal that “they should have got it”.

[wydlondon]

Agree with @Oohhhbetty, just pick the schools that you can see your DC in for the next 5/7 years and go with it, and be thankful that you have options. The exams grades and uni offers come later. If you are looking at uni offers only, then no private would be worth it pound for pound, but schools are more than exams.

It is not entirely true that you can pay your way into grammars, or the top selective privates, they choose you in those cases. Paying for tuitions is no difference to moving next to a good comp. Money gives you more options, isn't it why we all strive to do well in life. Whether the system is fair or not is another story. I have found in the UK secondary schools are segregated.

Lots of people move next to a good comp, then prep for grammars and privates, like a triple lock.

[paralysedbyinertia]

I don't think you really understand how contextual offers work.

But I feel a bit sorry for your kids having parents who are so obsessed about getting them into Oxbridge at this young age. In my experience, it was the kids with parents like that who really struggled psychologically.

You would do far better thinking about how to support good mental health in your children, over and above worrying about how you can use your wealth to buy as much unfair advantage as possible.

[Aboutnow]

I think fee paying schools scored a bit of an own-goal when some of them pandered to foreign customers, upped fees to cover expensive infrastructure spend, and therefore locked out middle class professionals. When oxbridge academics, journalists and politicians can't afford school fees then what happens? Policy change.

[wydlondon]

I don't think the fees has much to do with foreign customers tho, with those most likely found in boarding schools not day schools. Most if not all foreign families in day schools are based in the UK. Lots of overseas families are also finding it increasingly unaffordable to send their children to the UK.

With termly fees of £6000+ in a lot (most) of day schools, middle class professionals have been locked out for ages, especially the younger generation who also have to contend with high house prices. Which is why there is stiff competition for good comps and grammars, which leads to catchment premiums and tutoring.