Can't SPELL. Is phonics to blame?????

[drosophila]

I was thought to read by phonics and I am a terrible speller. Are the two related. As a child I would have trouble spelling a word like 'cable' cos the end of the word sounds like 'bel'. I never had a mental image of the word so would rely on my phonics. Well several beatings later and much abuse my spelling is no better.


I wonder if phonics had anything to do with this or was I just born that way.

[TeddyRobinson]

Hmm, well I was taught using phonics (I'm pretty sure anyway!) and my spelling is good. In fact, I get quite cross by bad spelling!! It certainly seems to be less of an issue these days for some reason. Certainly when I was recruiting in my old job, some of the application forms I came across was terrible.

Anyway, I think it's just a personal thing rather than how you were taught. Even if you start off learning by phonics, you are still taught correct spellings as you go through school - ds1 is in reception and has done JP. Already he is learning that words are not always spelt as you might think - he knows 'like', 'light', 'rough' for example.

[TeddyRobinson]

'were' terrible even! Ha ha! Grammar not up to much then!! Hee hee, should have checked it!

[Marne]

I cant spell, as some of you well know, i just put it down to not being very bright, i had'nt thought about the way i was tought at school.

[drosophila]

I think the thing with spelling is that it is a memory skill and if for whatever reason you don't have that skill you have to rely on phonics. Teddy, what do you do if you have to spell a word you have never seen in print?

[Pruni]

Message withdrawn

[Miaou]

"I cant spell, as some of you well know, i just put it down to not being very bright"

Marne, it doesn't automatically follow! I know some very intelligent people who can't spell.

[Nightynight]

I am sure it is a memory thing. When I was little, people were saying that if you didnt teach your child by phonics, they wouldnt be able to spell.
I can spell, my sister cant, and we both learned with the Key Words Reading Scheme.
I know how hard my sister worked to improve her spelling, she would learn reams of spellings and forget them a month later. English spellings are so daft anyway, they are just setting up a situation for children to fail. There is no point feeling bad about it. Fortunately we have got SpellCheck now!!

[TeddyRobinson]

Dros - I can't think of the last time I came across a word I didn't know how to spell. If I did, I'd have a go at what I thought and I'd check it in the dictionary!

[drosophila]

Sometimes I don't know where to start when looking in a dictionary. All my life I was told if you don;t know how to spell a word look it up. AAAAAggggghhhhhh!!!!!! They could never understand that I got all muddled up. I have often confounded spell check with my stabs.

My spelling did improve with spell check as I felt more confident and relaxed about my spelling and would often produce work with little or no mistakes. Other days not so lucky. People who are value spelling make me nervous and I could spell my own name incorrectly in front of this type of person.

[catflap]

ineffective phonics would have a big part of this. Our language is so complicated, phonics has to be pretty thorough to cover all the sounds and spelling representations. If 'bel' seems to be the spelling for the end of 'cable' then you haven't learnt all the spellings for that sound or all the words that use it - you are relying on a basic sounds and letter representations that are too limited for our language.

I good visual memory also has something to do with it - you need to see the words spelt correctly enough times to remember what the spelling representations are. Many avid readers are awful spellers, so I guess their visual memory isn't so hot.

[GDG]

Hi Catflap - you remember my ds is in reception and doing JP - I am stunned by his reading, it's phenomenal. Honestly - he can read almost anything and he loves it! His confidence is amazing and he is racing through the books at school reading them almost fluently! Hurrah for phonics!!

[catflap]

excellent news, GDG

[puddingandpie]

Gdg you d/s is in reception? and is reading already? My d/d is in reception and her library book she reads but it was from memory not each word. Do you spend a lot of time going over letters etc with your son? I feel guilty that i don't spend enough time with reading with my 4.5 year old. She says the sound I have alphabet hug on wall jolly phonics but doesn't always know the letter. Any advice to what you do? well done to your son. I am really poor at spelling please excuse any mistakes. thanks

[GDG]

When he was learning the sounds right at the start I just practiced the previous weeks sounds on a Sunday night. Didn't do the actions though.

Right from early on he starting trying to make words with his magnetic letters and could work out easy ones himself - cat, dog etc We sat at the radiator now and then I'd see if he could do easy words like 'sun', 'hen' etc. He didn't get a book from school for ages - I think cos it was Xmas and they didn't do so much reading over that half term, so I bought some phonic readers (BOB books by Ruth Miskin) and we read one with him every night (if he didn't want to we didn't push it but he was really enthusiastic). I must admit, he managed to 'blend' the sounds to work out words really quickly and I know this is a tricky thing for the children to 'get' at first. I know that a lot of the children in his class are not blending to read any words yet and some are reading fluently so there is obviously still quite a big range of ability on reading at this early stage.

He's been getting his books from school now since new year and he's reading one to one in school 3 times a week, and we read with him every night (well, he reads to us). He is going up to the next book 3 times a week as he can just do them. He reads road signs, cereal packets - anything.

BUT, I don't think you should push your dd as she is still only little and she'll do it when she's ready. I think if I were in your shoes I'd just try and put 10 mins aside after she gets in from school to 'read' a book together - try and get phonetic ones and where the sounds are repeated 'the cat sat in the hat/on the mat'. Just a few mins a day made a big difference with ds1 - if she doesn't want to I'd just leave it and perhaps just have a go at getting her to recognise sounds or simple words on anything around you, not just books.

Catflap is the person to ask really, but this is what we did. HTH

[roisin]

GDG - That's great news about your ds1
It's so exciting when it suddenly clicks and they learn to read, isn't it?
The world is his oyster now!

[throckenholt]

I was taught ITA at school (quickly abandonned if I recall) - and it took me ages to learn to spell properly (I used to get horse and house confused ). Now I can spell pretty well.

I think what helps most is an understanding of where our language came from - a mixutre of latin/greek via French (thanks to William the conqueror, and the Romans), and germanic words (via the Anglo Saxons) - if you can get a handle on where the different words started out then you know how to spell them - words usually fit into one ethnic group or another and spelling rules go with the grouping.

My DS is 4.5 - also in reception and is slowly picking up letters through phonics (was never interested when we tried at home) - but is a long way from reading at the moment.

[katetee]

Hi
I too was taught ITA, it was awful. Do you remember there was one character/letter where they joined an a and an e together, back to back?
Anyway, I am quite good at spelling, always found it fairly easy to remember words. My dds (12 & 10) both have been taught with phonics, dd1 has always loved books, would wander around with books in her hands as a toddler, found reading easy, was classed as able and gifted through infant school, now doing her KS3 sats early and starting GCSEs early. DD2 was taught the same way, never showed any interest in books, but with regard to her spelling, she is in the top group and will learn by rote all of her weekly spellings and get 10/10 every week. Then, when she writes she totally forgets how to spell even the simplest words!! I think its definitely a memory thing.

[throckenholt]

I googled it - it is still alive and kicking apparently - I thought it had been ditched years ago! The website I found says 1/3 of words are the same, 1/3 very similar and easy to learn the changes, and 1/3 are very different and just have to be learnt by rote. They claim it makes reading quicker and easier.

there was also the curly w omega thing which was oo or something. Very easy to learn to read but a nightmare when you had to switch to normal spelling.

I have heard a phonics tape and must admit I am puzzled by some of the analagies - I find it very difficult to remember to use them when I am trying to do letters with DS. I just tell him the sound it makes and it's name and then give examples of other words using the same sound.

[Berries]

Can't believe ITA is still going, thought they had proved it produced poor spellers. I'm another one here, but dsis1 (year before) didn't do it, and dsis4 (4 years later) didn't, so I thought it was only used for 2/3 years. Appalling.
BTW think house was HOWS, with that funny 'u' thng in it. Also remember the ae one, not so easy to write either. I'm a pretty good speller, but put that down to being a voracious reader.

[GDG]

Me too throckenholt - because for example, in JP 'n' is 'nnnn' like an aeroplane and I thought that was a bit of a loose association! We just never really did the actions or anything - like you, just the letter and the sound and then I'd say 'can you see anything in the room that you think begins with 'n'?'

Roisin - it's fantastic!! I'm really proud of him! Like you say, and I was saying it to dh the other night, a whole new world has opened up for him now that he can read - never really thought about it before but it's a huge, huge difference isn't it! He absolutely loves books at the moment too because he loves being able to read it (don't get me wrong, he still has to sound out new ones but he does it pretty quick) - long may it continue! THis morning he said the teacher allows them to take in their own book and she will read it to them and could he take one - so he's taken 'a squash and a squeeze' - I think the class will love that!

[sandyballs]

I love a squash and a squeeze . Bless him, that's brilliant at his age GDG. My twin DDs are in reception and neither of them are anywhere near that stage. One is getting there slowly, one is not interested.

[drosophila]

Do you think it's too late for me to improve my spelling. I just sent an email to work as I am returning soon and I got paranoid. I cut and paste onto word and spell checked and then to be sure I spell checked on email twice.

[catflap]

The thing with JP is (and really, an effective phonics programme) is that it should NOT rely on things the letter begins with to associate the sounds.

In JP, the sound /n/ is represented by an aeroplane story, action and sound - because saying 'nnnnn' sounds a bit like an aeroplane engine. It's got nothing to do with what begins with 'n' or anything - this can be very confusing for children.

Although we take for granted the 'a is for apple, b is for ball' etc, it is not plainly obvious to children what this is all about.

The SP/JP way, they are aware of the sound 'nnnn' by a fun story/action etc and then learn that it can be written 'n' 'nn' and 'kn'

The pictures offer an immediate reminder as to the action and sound, without the child having to then work out what the initial sound is if it is not immediately apparent to them.

The picture associations with the letters of the aplhabet is also limiting because it associates one letter with each sound, which is far less that actually occurs in our written and spoken word. 's' might be for snake, but what about when the letter 's' is in mash and pens and when the 's' sound is in 'face?'

With the JP method, these seemingly tenous and ridiculous sounds/pictures/actions etc are introducing children to ALL the speech SOUNDS then beginning the process of matching ALL the spelling representations to them.

puddingandpie - you said "Do you spend a lot of time going over letters etc with your son? I feel guilty that i don't spend enough time with reading with my 4.5 year old" which I thought was really sad, because you shouldn't have to be the one going over letters with your child or feeling guilty if you haven't - it should be the school's job, and hopefully with the new report that synthetic phonics should be at the heart of the literacy curriculum, hopefully the school will be making a more effective job of this soon. However, if you feel your school is not tackling this right, it sadly is up to us to do it instead...

[blueshoes]

Don't remember learning to spell as a child or having difficulty. But then again, I was probably not under the same academic pressure our little ones are under nowadays. Second that it is a memory thing - comes from reading books and seeing the same word over and over again. Even now, when I spell something wrongly, I can tell from the look of the word that it is wrong. [conscientiously previewing this post to make sure my spelling is 100%]

[throckenholt]

me too - I can tell if it looks right - have to write it down - not brilliant at spelling in my head.

I can spell - but I can't type accurately