Not sure what to do.

[tiredandfrazzled]

I've NC for this, as the situation would probably be identifiable if anyone I know reads this. Sorry for length, don't want to drip feed.

I made friends with a fellow mum (lets call her A) while DS1 was at nursery. Her DS is an only child (lets call him B). My DS2 is 2 1/2 years younger.

B had always been full on, but started to get more aggressive. B started targetting DS2 with his aggression and would frequently hit him, push him etc. Not all events were witnessed, but DS2 would cry and point at B and DS1 would tell me B did it. I did witness some major incidents (eg swinging wooden hammer down with full force on DS2's hand). I think it's because A gushes over DS2 in front of B and B gets jealous.

A started to distance herself from me slowly, but as she had met a new man I had put it down to that.

DS1 and B started school together last September. A few months in there was an incident where B had scratched DS1 across the face, severe enough for DS1 to be taken to the office to have an ice pack put on it because it had swelled up. A wasn't told about it by the school and I thought she would have been. When I came into contact with her the next morning I was a bit uncertain as to what her reaction would be and she realised something was up. At that point I realised she hadn't been told and tried to avoid saying anything but she badgered me asking me what was wrong. I admitted that DS1 had been picked on the previous day. She then asked, quite aggressively, by who? I said, 'Apparently by B'. She marched off to the school, talked to the teacher. (I hadn't had a chance to talk to the teacher, Childminder had collected him from school the previous day). I didn't talk to the teacher because drop off isn't an ideal time to have a quiet word, wanted to leave it until pick up.

A then had a massive go at me, raging at me, how dare I accuse her son of being a bully (I hadn't!), I obviously thought he was a completely shit (she repeated this many, many times), she had been keeping the boys apart because DS1 and B don't play well together and B plays beautifully with other children, claimed DS1 had hit first before B scratched. On and on, and on, getting quite personal at points. I bit my tongue for most of it, repeated that I hadn't had a chance to talk to the teacher, I didn't know the full story. I then bit back and said 'You know what, I'm quite happy for the boys to be kept apart. Ok?!' Not ideal, but I had had enough and quite frankly she was bloody lucky I hadn't said any worse given her attack. She then said 'it doesn't have to affect things between us'. Marched off, sent a half hearted apology by text apologising for the venom, but not for what she actually said. Spoke to the teacher after school, all the aggression had apparently been on B's side, DS1 did NOT hit B.

She has since been completely ignoring me, walking the long way around to avoid having anything to do with me. But she still continues to gush over DS2 if he is playing a little way away from me.

But.... the aggression shown by B is continueing. DS1 has come home from school with numerous injuries which the teacher has reported have come from B. She is adamant that DS1 has not been the instigator. We have had scratches on the face (nails), scrapes down the face from a scooter collission (to be fair can't say that was deliberate, but just his general over the top playing), deep scratches from holly leaves pushed into his face, and the latest, a scrape down the back from being pushed and chased down stone steps when DS1 did NOT want to play with B. This is on top of the incidents which the teachers don't tell me about, but DS1 does.

What am I supposed to do????? A won't speak to me. It sounds as though B doesn't have all that many friends. I know from other mums that their DSs have had run ins with B, but they seem to steer clear of him most of the time whereas DS1 does play with B at school. None of the other mums ever say anything to A. I have no idea whether A even knows about these incidents (apart from being asked to keep his nails trimmed while they dealt with his scratching) It is a fairly small class, only 9 boys.

I know the school are trying to deal with it, they are not allowed to sit together at lunch time according to DS1 (different teacher supervising then). I just don't know what to do....

Do I have a right to be told what steps they are putting in place to deal with B's behaviour as it seems DS1 is bearing the brunt of it? Can I insist that A and B's DF be told about all the incidents if they haven't yet (including with other children, preferably!)? (A is not with B's father but have shared care, B's father is actually quite nice and friendly but I have avoided saying anything to him so as not to make the situation with A worse)

[thisisyesterday]

i would ask for a meeting with the head teacher and the class teacher and I would demand to know what they are going to do to keep your child safe

forget about any history between you and this woman. that's irrelevant. the fact is, a child is bullying yours and it needs to be stopped NOW.

i would be shocked if B's parents have not been told about his behaviour, but I would clarify this with the school. If parents haven't been involved then I would insist that this happens immediately.

[Harecare]

You have no responsibility to B. You can't help A if she doesn't ask for help or advice or even admit there is a problem.
You can only work on your own child and the teacher. Tell your DS to keep away from B. Role play scenarios that he tells you about so you can teach him how to escape/get along. Ask the teacher what they are doing to manage behaviour (generally and specifically). What sanctions are being imposed? Why is bad behaviour not being reported back to parents? That is not helpful to anyone.

[laurenamium]

Everything yesterday said. It sounds like A might have been upset to hear that B may have been hurting other children and took it out on you though, hence the apology by text and now why she is ignoring you. If she truly believed that your DS was the instigator she wouldn't be gushing over him still when she saw him!

But definitely arrange a meeting with class teacher and head to see what can be done about B's behaviour and keeping your child safe!

[tiredandfrazzled]

Thanks everyone. 2 incidents in 2 days is just TOO much! I will talk to the teacher tomorrow morning.

Laurenamium - it's DS2 she gushes over, not DS1. DS2 bizarrely looks more like B than he does DS1. A has always wanted another DC and says she would love to have another DS, exactly like DS2.

I've had lots of discussions with the teacher, and they are trying, but I think their approach is very 'softly, softly'. Problem is DS1 doesn't go to them when B starts getting pushy and aggressive, and only goes when it escalates. Poor bloody kid, reminds me of me when I was little, wouldn't back down from a situation or show fear.

What can they actually do to a 4 year old? TBH I think he needs 1 on 1 attention as I suspect he is on the autistic spectrum - A has mental health issues (not being mean, it is something she has told me). Suspect she has a manic personality.

[elliepac]

There is a time and a place for a softly softly approach, especially with 4 year olds. However this strategy is clearly not working as the behaviour is still ongoing. This is not a bit of playground argy bargy and now needs a firmer targetted approach by school. Age is irrelevant to a point as bullying is bullying. Do you have faith in the class teacher. If so speak to her but be prepared to go to the head if she fails to solve the issue.

As for A, her reaction could have been a mixture of shock, embarrassment and/or a defence mechanism. Get the issue between your boys sorted and then try to resolve the issues between you. If she is even failing to acknowledge there is a bullying issue and is not preprared to do anything about it, i wouldn't want her as my friend tbh.

[thisisyesterday]

" Problem is DS1 doesn't go to them when B starts getting pushy"

he shouldn't have to! if they know that B is picking on him then they need to ensure they are keeping a close eye on B to ensure that he is not hurting other children.
Your child cannot be expected to pre-empt B or somehow know when he is going to do something unkind.
The school are responsible for the children while they are there and they need to sort it out

I would be looking for a clear action plan from the school tomorrow, including details of how they are going to keep the boys separate and how they are going to keep an eye on B to prevent any more incidents.

If they continue with their "softly softly" approach then I would consider a complaint to the Governors and although I would always say deal with these things through the school int he first instance if the school were unhelpful then i WOULD talk to B's mum again and/or B if necessary and make it very clear that if he hurt my child ONE more time then there would be one hell of a fuss

[WhoKnowsWhereTheTimeGoes]

I had a bit of a situation with bullying when DS was in Yr 2, a boy started hitting and punching/poking him, bit him once. I spoke to the teacher immediately and they did put various measures in place to keep them apart, but it seemed impossible for them to be kept apart 100% of the time. They were very supportive and determined to stop it, I'm not quite sure what they actually put in place as regards the other boy (his mother no longer speaks to me and I never actually spoke to her about it, it was all through the school) but it did stop fairly quickly.

DS was not telling the teacher about these events (he has AS and doesn't always communicate well), either telling me at home or other children who saw what was going on reported him. I decided DS needed to learn some coping strategies and to recognise when events were going to occur, we started doing some role play and giving him clear instructions on how he needed to behave (I've got a book called The Rules of Friendship, which I used for guidance IIRC). We did quite a bit of role play at home. It made both of us feel more confident that he could deal with the situation if it arose again, and may well have contributed to it stopping.

I would definitely be looking for stronger action from the school if I was you, but the role play idea may help as well.

[ToffeeWhirl]

I don't think I can give you any better advice than you've been given already, but, in your situation, I would go to the head. Whatever the teacher is doing is not preventing your son being injured and it's not good enough - particularly considering there are only nine in the class. Why isn't she preventing this behaviour? Your son needs to be protected. Personally, I wouldn't bother with the other mother because she was abusive to you, but that depends on whether you want to maintain a friendship with her. I have had bullying issues with my son and was able to remain friendly with the other mother because neither of us blamed each other. But some mothers don't do that.

I'm really sorry you and your son are going through this. It's so upsetting. I hope the matter is resolved soon.

[tiredandfrazzled]

Can't speak to the Headteacher this week as she isn't in.

Was due to speak to the teacher tomorrow morning, but DS1 has just been throwing up so no school for 2 days.... sigh.

Toffee - 22 in the class, only 9 boys. Always at least 1 Teacher's Aid in the class as well. Only a small school, 3 classes in total, Yr R, 1 and 2. Yr 1 and 2 are even smaller!!!

Most of the incidents seem to be happening at lunch time so the class teacher seems to be doing a good job of keeping on top of it - flare ups nipped in the bud (judging by what DS1 tells me). At lunch they have not been permitted to sit together since the scratching incidents. It's just the lunch playtime, and the class teacher doesn't supervise that. Actually, thinking about it, this week has been worse than the last 1 1/2 weeks and the Headteacher has been off sick this week - might be the reason why..... Suspect she was keeping a close eye on B.

They're running a 'School Behaviour Policy' information session for parents - wonder if it's a coincidence?!

[Lifebeginsatforty]

I would say that you definitely have a right to know about what is being done to protect your son, but not necessarily what is being specifically done about B's behaviour. Or at least only where it relates to your son.

If the Headteacher is off, I would ask to meet with the class teacher and the Deputy as clearly the situation is not getting better, and could be escalating(?). You could also ask for the person supervising during breaks to be there, as obviously that person needs to be informed of all problems. Perhaps that is more important than the class teacher.

Have you told the school about all the incidents that your DS didn't report to them but told you about? Maybe they are still using softly softly because they haven't looked at the full scale of the problem.

If DS is off school, I presume you will need to be at home to look after him, but if not, then I wouldn't postpone the meeting. It will probably make you both feel better to know what measures will be put in place when he goes back. And meanwhile roleplaying sounds like an excellent idea. (Although I know I wouldn't have a clue how to do it, and would need to buy a book to help me.)

[Lifebeginsatforty]

Also forgot to say that if you think B's DF is friendly, and he shares childcare, then I would explain the situation to him. He should be informed, but you can't force other people to tell him. It sounds as if A is being very defensive, and in denial to an extent. I think you may have to forget about this friendship for a (long) while.

[Honu]

I second the role-playing and coping strategies. When much younger my DS2 was teased for wearing glasses which, as borderline aspie, he took very badly. Coping strategies worked very well here, although I am well aware this now is more serious than just words.
May I also suggest that, before you go to any meeting, you write down a list of events with date, time, activity (lunch, playtime, lesson etc), what happened, what action was taken. Not necessarily to present to the meeting (although the fact you have a list will make them take you more seriously) but also to clarify your own mind and to refer to if action is needed later.
Good luck.

[WhoKnowsWhereTheTimeGoes]

Yes, I agree with Honu about keeping notes, I did this throughout the period I mentioned. You may never need them but they might come in handy. It also made me feel I was taking more control of the situation. It does make people sit up and listen in meetings if you have come prepared with notes (I found this useful when I felt I was getting bullied at work a few years ago too)

[swanthingafteranother]

Tired don't really have anything constructve to add except that I remember ds2 getting obsessed with another boy in his class in Reception and squashing him, sitting on him, getting too close to him, pushing him. It's almost as if he was tryng to get attention from him by annoying/hurting him. He worshipped him yet he hurt him/had fights with him. It was not as bad as you describe, but I felt very worried (as of course did the other mother, who I had met for first time in Reception) Teacher separated them and kept an eye on situation. It settled down and in Year I they were able to play together. I always always apologised to the mother of the child, who was friendly with me. We did not discuss it beyond my apology though. We were not bosom buddies. I suppose I thought it was good manners to apologise, but subsequently I began to realise that what happened in the school should be dealt with THROUGH THE SCHOOL. I didn't know at that point that ds2 (4) was on ASD spectrum; he was not diagnosed till 9. They were very good friends for a long time, he often came to play here although they have seemingly lost interest in each other now. After Reception I would say there were no incidents of Ds2 hurting his "friend". [Although he went on to attack other children in some bad playground situations] I wonder whether this little boy is just obsessed with your son and tryng to provoke him to get attention. It sounds like a very ASD response as you say. The playground is often where ASD children get stressed and their stress can manifest itself as aggression/getting too close. Not always, but it can. THE SCHOOL SHOULD DEFINITELY HANDLE THIS. I would be very wary of expecting the matter to be sorted out between the two mothers. It is something that happens in context of school, and they are responsible.
I'm not in anyway trying to excuse this child's behaviour, just that the school needs to help that violent child in the playground, and you should not have to be dealing with the mother, or trying to get your child to stand up for himself (other than reporting the incidents straight back to teacher/playground supervisor) or worryng about the background to their relationship. The onus is on supervision to stop the aggression to your child happening in the first place. Whether you knew the mother in the first place or not.

The last thing is to establish whether school has a zero-tolerance for violent behaviour, because apparently that is very important for dealing with aggressive acts in ASD situations even at such a young age. It can be a non-punitive "zero tolerance" (as simple as the child being given something else to do,and told WE DONT HIT OTHERS), and it can show understanding of why the child lashed out in the first place, but the message has to get through that it is not acceptable to hit/scratch others when you are upset or want attention.

Your little boy shouldn't have to put up with this, but maybe you could say to him if you suspect ASD in the other child, that the other child might find it difficult to play nicely. I hope the school can improve things. I think you can also say things in a tactful way to other mother if you do need to mention anything, like "there are issues between them atm" Or you could even, if you were very brave, invite the little boy round without his mother and see whether that made a difference to his behaviour to your son, if he felt your son was on his side so to speak. Probably you wouldn't want to because he has hurt ds2, but perhaps that is a form of attention seeking to his mum if he is jealous.

Sorry, I've rambled, just thinking through thngs from a distance as my children are now 9 and I have a bit of hindsight.

[tiredandfrazzled]

yesterday - I am definitely going to try to forget there is any history with A. It's not helpful for me to have it in the back of my mind when trying to deal with this situation. DS needs to come first, and KNOW that he comes first.

Swan - what you've said has really resonated with me. A lot of the incidents seem to happen at the point where DS is trying to get away/remove himself from B. Also B often gets 'physically' close, so DS pulls away a little bit and then B gets into his face more. DS then puts his hands up to create a barrier/wall - not touching B necessarily, but B moves into them as he tries to get closer - and B then lashes out (have witnessed this at drop off a number of times). Other incidents are where children don't do exactly what he wishes them to do, he doesn't know how to adjust to the situation and either pushes them away or tries to 'make' them do what he wants them to.

One of the major problems is that A doesn't watch him when he's interacting with other DC. She just chats to all the grown ups and only pays attention to him when there's a cry of distress or someone tells her that something is going on. So B, quite cleverly, has learned to get into mischief quietly as then she doesn't notice it. Case in point - at a community Saturday workshop she invited a friend who had 2 DDs, and A spent most of the time (a 2 hour workshop) helping with her friend's DD1 so that her friend could look after her young DD2. DD1 looked roughly the same age as B. Meanwhile B was running around the place getting into trouble with everyone, but did it quietly when he went through a room where A was. Came up and tried to push me out of the way a few times but I wasn't having any of it!

But... not my problem. My problem is when B lashes out at DS1. Am going to make an appointment with the teacher to see both her and the headteacher next week when DS2 is at nursery.

Life and Honu - interesting about the role playing. Definitely something to try. I will wait to see what the teacher and Headteacher have to say first so that I know what situation I need to role play. If it comes to separating them completely it will be different to a teacher keeping a very close eye on
B.

[tiredandfrazzled]

Well, I have spoken to the teacher this morning. There has been NO coordination or discussion on dealing with B's behaviour by any of the teachers. The parents have NOT been informed of any issues at all.

I pointed out that this issue is ongoing, and that I wasn't willing to put up with my son being injured like this. I asked that the teachers have a meeting so they could jointly decide and implement a strategy for dealing with B's behaviour. I also said that perhaps B's parents were told of the issues with B's behaviour (not accepting a 'no' from other children, and not respecting their boundaries - which leads to him pushing at them and then lashing out).

I said I was happy to leave it at that for now, but that if DS1 was injured again at school I would be requesting a meeting with the headteacher to personally discuss what steps were being taken to make sure DS1 wasn't going to be injured at school.

As it turned out A was in the class with B at the time, there had obviously been something going on as both looked VERY unhappy. A spent an hour in the class, because I passed her on my way home after dropping DS2 off at nursery (I spent ages chatting to one of the nursery mums!!!). I said a cheery hello, she responded with a hello, how's it going? (in a not so friendly voice and a very unfriendly face) I responded 'fine' and kept walking, to hear her mutter something unpleasant sounding behind me. I didn't ask how she was - no point really as I could see that she had gone through an awful morning and I refuse to get involved in it. She's made her decision on how to treat me so I will merely be civil from now on.

She will know that I am the instigator when she is spoken to by the school. It will be interesting to see what happens as a result.

So.... let's see what next week brings!!!

[WhoKnowsWhereTheTimeGoes]

Well done Tired, both on taking the school in hand and keeping things civil with A.

Did the teachers give you an idea of when they will meet and decide what to do with B? Obviously the outcome will be confidential, but I would follow up next week and make sure they have actually done so. Hopefully they have seen that you mean business and they will take action promptly now.

[tiredandfrazzled]

Well the headteacher's away this week, so I will give it until the end of next week and ask again if I haven't heard anything. She usually does all of the coordinating for things so I can't see that anything will happen without her involvement. TBH I think I will know from A's glares when they have spoken to her!!!!

I think a lot of this could be dealt with if B had a chance to play with other children in small groups with close adult supervision - but that never happened, and not likely to now. I'm certainly not going to volunteer DS1 for any out of school playtime!!!

[swanthingafteranother]

One of the things Ds2's school do is offer Nurture groups for children with behavioural problems or children who are exhibiting stress in school settings. This can be as simple as getting a small group together to go down and make toast in the basement in the "nurture room". The school should offer small social skills groups of the most basic sort for those children who can't cope whether they are diagnosed with any problem or not. So it is not just up to "A", there is something school can do to help improve "B"s behaviour.

Sorry you have been given no real feedback yet, but I'm sure being firm at this stage and logging it will help. My ds1 (the NT) one was harassed by an Autistic child in year 3. At the time we weren't told of her problems (she was older Yr5) and in the end ds ended up being logged as saying something bad to her. Dh always thought we should have written to complain that ds was logged and her [extreme] behaviour not taken in consideration. I let it go, but it is always a fine line between being overofficious and being pushed around, in case a worse incident occurs to keep a record of what actually happened originally. Comments conversations are misremembered and misreported or just plain forgotten.