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(46 Posts)
ZoeP Mon 11-Apr-05 06:39:56

My 9 week old weighed 7lb at birth and only weighs 7 15 now. HV says to supplement with formula. My prob is that baby is very very windy (always blue around the mouth) also very sleepy when feeding and will go hours without feed if I let her. She generally feeds every 3 hours and am trying to give her both breasts because HV says my milk may be low, sometimes she will only take 10 mins before falling asleep, have tried all sorts to keep her awake - How can I keep her awake to feed? have tried everything for wind nothing works (all medicines, cranio osteo etc)Any tips? How do I know if she has got to the hind milk? I cant face putting her on formula What do I do?

SueW Mon 11-Apr-05 06:47:43

Contact ABM's 24 hour breastfeeding helpline on 0870 401 7711.

Or Breastfeeding Network 0870 900 8787

Or NCT Breastfeeding Line (8am -10pm) 0870 444 8708

There's also lots of info here

Good luck

nailpolish Mon 11-Apr-05 07:45:16

hi zoe

both my dd's were very windy, i tried feeding them completely upright (tricky, but you find a position that suits eventually) and winding twice in the middle of feeds

to keep baby awake i fed her with just her nappy on, so she wasnt too cosy, and dh would ping her toes

i disagree that formula helps put on weight, dd1 one week put on 11oz, and she was purely bf

do you eat well? maybe (and im no expert) if you eat calorific foods, then baby will get some too. but i may be wrong. hopefully a good bf person will be along soon

lots of luck, and dont worry too much xxx

NotQuiteCockney Mon 11-Apr-05 09:11:15

I would try to feed more than every three hours, particularly during the day. When my DS2 was tiny, I tended to feed to sleep, but also to feed when he woke.

I wouldn't worry much about hind/fore milk, just leave her on one side as long as she likes. (10 minutes is enough for some babies, it all depends on how efficiently they suck)

One good way to make sure she gets loads is to take a "babymoon" - spend a day in bed just feeding.

I'd also talk to the BF counsellors, and maybe try to find someone local to you - where are you? There are baby cafes with BF counsellors who will give you the support you need to continue BF.

(They will ask you: How many wet nappies per day? How many poos per day? Does she have happy alert times? Also, is she jaundiced?)

It doesn't sound like you need to supplement.

stitch Mon 11-Apr-05 09:17:31

dont put her on formula, as it is likely to make the wind worse.
i used chamomilla drops t ohelp with my babies wind. recommended by hv, but as it is a homeopathic medicine, i spoke to a homeopathic doctor before giving it to him.
what worries me is the blue lips. have you had her heart checked out? please do, and let us know.
also, the babymoon idea sounds brilliant

Tissy Mon 11-Apr-05 09:17:47

when my baby was "windy" (though not sure it really was wind) I was advised to put her back on the same breast as the last feed to make sure she got plenty of hind milk.It sounds to me, that by giving her both sides she may be getting too much foremilk, which could make her uncomfortable. You really don't need to give her both breasts, as long as your baby is sucking one or the other, the message will be getting through. Changing sides is really for your comfort, so you don't end up lopsided!Obviously for the hungrier, thirstier baby, the second breast is pudding!

tiktok Mon 11-Apr-05 13:22:20

Tissy, sorry, you're incorrect....feeding from one breast ie putting the baby back to the same breast is fine, and may well help with 'wind' in cases of over-supply, but ZoeP really needs to increase the volume of milk made and got into the baby.

ZoeP, you do need to feed from both sides, and more often than every 3 hours, too.

The blue about the mouth meaning wind is (IMHO) a myth. Why would air in the stomach show up as blue on the mouth????Forget about whether she is windy or not. Just feed

Tissy Mon 11-Apr-05 13:29:20

I stand corrected, tiktok, though I'm sure I got that information here...

Why, though...I thought the control of milk supply was a central thing, does the brain only send milk-making hormones to the breast that is sucked on?

Anyway, as Zoep's HV said the milk supply may be low, I was taking that bit of her message with a pinch of salt, and focussing on the "windy" bit.

Sorry if I've caused any confusion

tiktok Mon 11-Apr-05 13:57:38

Tissy, a baby who's only gained 15 ounces in 9 weeks prob could do with a bit of a boost, so I think the HV is prob right in suspecting low supply.

The breast milk supply is boosted best when both breasts are stimulated - this maximises volume, and yes, both breasts do act independently, not centrally, after the initial days.

One side or two does not matter for most women - supply is generous if the baby is feeding effectively and one sided feeding is fine if that's what the baby indicates he wants/needs. But if there is any question mark over volume and baby's weight gain, then two sides it has to be

ZoeP Tue 12-Apr-05 21:41:06

Thanks everyone. Sure milk supply is better over the last week because they are definately fuller. She is feeding better most of the time BUT, tonight for instance, I fed her as usual before bed and she winded fine and as soon as I put her down she started crying, she was passing wind loads which unsettles her and she was very very blue around the mouth. I will try and feed her every 2 hours but am concerned if she is perhaps lactose intollerant?????? I spent an hour and a half trying to settle her before she finally fell asleep on me. She is almost 10 weeks now and I am so tired of this, was hoping things would improve but dosent seem to be. She is also spitting up sometimes an hour after a feed with cottage cheese type lumps - could this be reflux??? I probably worry too much but the tiredness is really getting to me and she is such a happy baby otherwise. Will start to feed every 2 hours from tomorrow and let you know.

ionesmum Tue 12-Apr-05 21:52:51

Zoe, I had to ff my first and she had a real wind problem which was made worse by using formula. I had a couple of months of her being in agony before finding one that suited. My second is bfed and is so much happier, she farts for England but that's normal for a bfed baby. With dd1 the wind was trapped, she bloated out and couldn't fart, poor love. Lumpy milk being spat up is normal too, it's begun to be digested I think. With dd2 I drink three cups of camomile tea a day, which is beneficial both from a wind point of view (through your milk) and also because it is a relaxant for both you and baby. It may be coincidence but my dd2 has never been colicky and hardly spat up at all.

I don't know about the blue around the mouth thing though. What does your hv or GP say?

collision Tue 12-Apr-05 22:03:48

IMHO, the blue round the mouth is wind. I was a nanny for 16 years and lots of my babies were blue round their mouths with wind. Just keep patting and stroking their backs and it will come up eventually.

Ds1 did not have this but ds2 who is BF does have this and we have to persevere.

Happy babymooning. Get lots of magazines and some snacks and watch TV and feed the baby!!

My HV told me to eat lots and drink lots whilst BFing so give that a try too.

tiktok Tue 12-Apr-05 22:30:07

OK, collision - just tell me how it works, and I will believe it : )
Remember: the air in the stomach has to somehow appear as a blue colouration in the skin above the lip.

Zoe, she cannot be lactrose intolerant, or you would know by now. Congenital LI is very rare, and when it happens the baby is ill. What happens if you just cuddle/feed her when she seems windy and unsettled?

ionesmum Tue 12-Apr-05 22:46:00

Zoe, my already windy dd1 got a temporary intolerance to lactose following a virus. It's very dramatic - you can't miss it. If your dd is bringing up or farting out her wind, she is okay.

Have you thought about baby massage?

jamiesam Tue 12-Apr-05 22:46:37

I struggled to produce enough milk for my ds1 - I think for me it was a combination of bad positioning and not realising that I should offer him both breasts at each feed. I know they're not your problems now, but for me the solution was to breast pump after most feeds and then offer the ebm during the next feed. That way I was confident that I was emptying the breasts and ds was getting hindmilk and gradually I increased production. Just a thought. (The seemingly endless cleaning and sterilising of breast pump does get a bit wearing if you do this - might fit in with an extended period of 'baby mooning')

Sorry, no advice on excess wind/colic. There is a school of thought that feeding too regularly makes it difficult for baby to digest food properly. However, as this school of thought MIGHT be Gina Ford, you may or may not want to take any notice of it.

SamN Tue 12-Apr-05 23:18:54

Zoe, have you spoken to a bf counsellor yet? See SueW's numbers and also La Leche League 0845 120 2918. Someone on any of these lines would be able to talk you through what is going on and give you suggestions based on what you can tell them.

My first son was very windy and colicky and fell asleep lots on the breast too, so I used to worry about how much he was getting, quite apart from having to deal with all the crying. And my second son has reflux. Breastfeeding counsellors have been great help in both cases.

Just a couple of tips that have helped me
- don't lie your baby down just after a feed, keep them upright for a while(you can hold her to your chest with her head over your shoulder a little). This will help with wind and with reflux.
- if possible try to feed her more often even than 2 hourly. I did a 'babymoon' with my first son, just like NotQuiteCockney suggested, and that helped him to start feeding more frequently and stopped the health visitor commenting about his weight!

There are also some articles about what to do with sleepy babies here on which I have found a really useful site although sometimes the amount of information can be overwhelming.

Best wishes with your little daughter. Please tell us how you get on.

mum2max Wed 13-Apr-05 11:06:48

baby massage has been proven over and over to help both prem and "not thriving" babies to put on weight. Your HV may know someone who's been trained. I was lucky, my HV is the trained person, but a friend of mine paid for "massage and yoga" classes.
These also show you some stomach massage (they say 3 month for that) and leg movements (ok this young). My ds was waking up every couple of hours in night bringing his legs up and screaming with pain, the "circling bike legs" and "knee raises" sorted out the stuck farts and hey presto, he doesn't wake up farting any more, he just farts during the evening massage instead - how loud!!!

ZoeP Wed 13-Apr-05 13:18:59

I have caved in and decided to wean her off me. I think perhaps I am too much of a routine person to cope with the BF anymore let alone the problems. After 10 weeks I have finally had enough and am sure she is not getting enough food. I live in the country side (north dorset)and am very isolated which is not helping. Partner works away so no support. Have spoken with BF counsellor and HV but am so tired of this worrying that am giving up before it gets too difficult too. Thanks everyone so much for your help.

jamiesam Wed 13-Apr-05 13:23:21

Zoe - sorry you're giving up but if it's not working out for you.... and 10 weeks is a lot more than many babies get

mum2max Wed 13-Apr-05 14:06:24

A friend of mine only managed 6 weeks bf. So for getting this far!

collision Wed 13-Apr-05 16:12:49

mmmmm Tiktok, a challenge!! I dont know how to prove it is wind.......sorry! I was told by a dr that I worked for that her twins had wind when there was blue round their mouths! If it isnt wind then what is it??

tiktok Wed 13-Apr-05 18:06:12

collision, I do see blue on babies' mouths, but I can't see why on earth it would be wind. I reckon some babies' skin is very translucent, and this is a view of blood vessels under the skin. They may be more visible at some times....different light, volatile blood flow, period of crying.

As I said before, how would wind in the baby's tummy affect the skin or the blood on the face???!

aloha Wed 13-Apr-05 18:11:32

Could the blue, the extreme sleepiness and the lack of weight gain be connected? It sounds to me - and I am no expert - that this baby might be better seen by a specialist rather than by a formula-mad HV.

aloha Wed 13-Apr-05 18:12:38

Also, giving formula does NOT mean you can't also breastfeed your baby and give her the particular goodness of breastmilk as well as formula. It's called mixed feeding and it can work very well. It doesn't have to be all one or all the other.

tiktok Wed 13-Apr-05 18:44:10

aloha, I agree that someone who knows what's what should be helping Zoe, and be able to offer more options than just formula.

Zoe, I can understand this is so worrying for you.

Formula may not resolve the issues you are concerned about, however, and may bring problems of its own (a read of the MN forums reveals many anxieties when formula is used, as well).

There is no easy answer to this - it's a real shame you have not been able to get good support from the HV, and a baby gaining weight as slowly as yours and still being difficult to feed should have been seen sooner, to be honest. It's easier to fix things that way.

I hope things work out better for you.

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