Relearning a good latch after tongue tie release?

[Giraffeski]

My DD2 had her posterior tongue tie divided yesterday. She's 13 weeks and has learned a very shallow latch where she basically just chomps on my nipple.
I'm now struggling to get her to open her mouth wide enough- not sure how as the usual 'nipple to nose' that works with tiny babies isn't having any effect.
Does anyone have any tips to getting a better latch? Also, she has a bit of an upper lip tie but the dr said he would like to leave that for now. It not too bad but she does seem to struggle with turning her top lip out- I have tried to flick it out myself when latching her on, with no success.

[Giraffeski]

Anyone?

[BuntyCollocks]

Tickle the top lip to encourage a wider gape - at this age they're mimics, so show her what you want to do.

Also - please, please get someone else to check the lip tie. It makes a huge difference, and it is not recognised as such here, unfortunately.

You can also stuff more boob in whilst they're latched - use a hand or finger to basically push it into the mouth from the side. I think I'm making an arse of explaining this.

To flip out upper lip (I still have to, my dd is relearning after a posterior tie and upper lip tie revision at 9 weeks), I wait until she's latched, and then very gently use my index finger to manually flip.

[Giraffeski]

Thanks Bunty. I do try to stuff as much in as possible but she doesn't like it!!
The dr didn't say he wouldn't revise the upper lip per se, he just said to see how we go for a few weeks now the tt has been revised and that he was reluctant to snip it if at all possible because it could lead to a gummy smile later on.
So if I am still struggling he said to come back and he would consider it.
Saying that, she does seem to have more movement in her upper lip now that the tt has been released, so perhaps once we've given her a chance to try and latch better then it might not affect her as much as I thought?

[BadgerFace]

I have this too with my 13 week old DE - she had her TT cut at 8 weeks. I struggle to get her top lip to flare but have found that gently pressing on her chin when she is latched helps to open her mouth a bit wider and flares the bottom lip which she used to clamp around the base of my nipple.

We have also been seeing an osteopath which I think has helped a bit.

Good luck!

[Giraffeski]

She's due a feed in a few minutes so I'm going to try some of these ideas!

[BuntyCollocks]

giraffe dr isn't Patrick Sheehan is it?

Larry kotlow, THE leading authority on tongue and lip ties, assured me personally that snipping a lip tie will not lead to a gummy smile. The muscles that are used to smile are in no way tied to the lip tie.

[JollyPurpleGiant]

Try googling "flipple" as this may help :)

[Giraffeski]

Bunty, yes it was Patrick Sheehan.
I have just been to a breastfeeding support group which was very lovely but not that helpful, however I will try the health visitors at the weighing clinic tomorrow as well to see if anyone has any 'hands on' advice.
I think the 'flipple' is sort of what I try to do at the moment, but will have a look and see anyway. She just doesn't seem to get a great seal still.
Interestingly, the peer supporter told me that the top lip should curl in, not sure if she is right or not?

[BuntyCollocks]

I recognised the line about the gummy smile. ;)

You must be near my neck of the woods then. Can I suggest you take a trip to see John Roberts at cote royd? He was trained by larry kotlow, and he and his staff are excellent.

Also, the top lip should not curl in. Curling in is compensating for a sloppy latch due to a tie of some description - they're using the lip to grip instead of a tight seal.

Feel free to pm me - I went to Patrick with my DS, and we are looking at a forth (!) tongue tie revision and an upper lip tie revision when he has his adult teeth, because the tie regrew, and he wouldn't do the upper lip.

If I had originally went to John, my DS wouldn't have the massive gap between his top teeth caused by the tie, and potentially we wouldn't have had the issues breastfeeding we did - although they were caused by the tie being missed for 4 weeks in the first place.

He would also now not be facing going through it as a child who will remember the procedure :(

[Giraffeski]

Hmm- interesting stuff. I do still feel there's a problem latching and my first instinct was that it's to do with the upper lip curling in, but the breastfeeding woman today's saying that made me doubt myself.
There's no doubt that the tt snip has made a world of difference but I am still worried about the lip. The thing is, Cote Royd is in the region of £400 as far as I am aware, and £180 for Patrick Sheehan was stretching things really so I'm not really sure we can afford it and we don't have private healthcare insurance. What I might try to do is push Mr Sheehan to do the lip as I believe he does do them on occasion and he did say he would possibly consider it, but he wouldn't charge any extra by us going away and leaving it for a while to see what happens.
Argh, really not sure what to do now!

[BuntyCollocks]

PS will only clip halfway if he does do it :( from what I was told by larry kotlow, this increases the risk of reattachment, and is indicative of a practioner who is not confident doing it.

Cote royd for us was £360 - BUT that was also with an osteopath appt and seeing the lactation consultant - I think it's £240 without those, which I appreciate is still a lot of money, ESP when you've already paid out.

When we went to cote royd with dd, it was a resnip of her tongue tie, and the first go at the lip. The tongue tie had regrown, and whilst there had been an initial improvement, it was nothing compared to the difference when the lip and tongue were both cut.

7 weeks on she has an amazing latch, and breastfeeding is lovely. There has been no regrowth.