At what age is the M-CHAT administered please?

[Frightattendent]

Just wondering, as ds has just failed his at 16mo. He failed on two critical questions and several non critical.

I'm wondering if he is too little though? And what happens next? Would he just be observed for another few months?

TIA

[silverfrog]

Some info here.

Sorry to be blunt - am in the middle of trying to keep dd1 sitting at the table for her tea {sigh}

[Frightattendent]

Thanks silver

as you were!

[Frightattendent]

Thankyou - I can't find the PEDS one without the fee though. Will keep looking...bump in case anyone else has info, thanks..

[silverfrog]

Right, am back.

Form reading that link, it seems your ds is only just old enough to be tested (my dd1 is autistic, and first signs were picked up when she failed the original CHAT at 18 months)

How strong are your concerns?

Not sure what you mean by the PEDS one?

here seems to have a lot of info about it too

Sorry to be vague, it all seems like so long ago for me (dd1 is 4.2 now, and we are battleing schooling)

[Liffey]

My son had it at 18 months and at 20 months and at 24 months and at 26 months. HE Finally PASSED IT at 26 months. I couldn't work out why they weren't delighted until I googled it.

My son is on the Autistic Spectrum. But don't worry, failing it at 16 months doesn't mean you need to worry.

[Frightattendent]

Hiya...Liffey thankyou, I'm not too fussed if he ends up being on the spectrum but am v interested to know, iyswim - I do think he has a slight delay but it might not be autism..

Silver, thanks for coming back - the second link is good too, thanks. The PEDS thing was something they linked to with the first page, it said soemthing about doing a follow up test after the M-chat and I couldn';t work out what that was. It links to a group called Forepath who charge you for the test I think?

[silverfrog]

Ah, i see (only skimmed the link I gave)

here is the follow up interview stuff, from the second link - it take soyu through soem of what would be talked about.

am on the run again, as bedtime - i will return

[Frightattendent]

damn, link not working - never mind. HV coming on Weds so will ask then.

Can I ask what they picked up on with your dd (and Liffey with your ds) mainly? Ds2 doesn't point is the main thing, but he also does some of the others.

[kt14]

ds1 is probably high functioning autistic and at 16 months he didn't really point using his index finger (he may have gestured with a whole hand, can't quite remember) or really bring me things to share. It was very subtle at that age, and we didn't really pick up on the warning signs until around 22 months when his language development began to cause concern. He never had the CHAT or we may have known earlier.

DS2 would probably pass the CHAT now, he is 13 months. If he'd been my first, I'd have definitely realised ds1 was slightly different and acted sooner.

[Frightattendent]

Yes I think ds1 would have passed it at around 12mo! He was really forward with lots of things. Maybe that's why ds2 seems so evidently different.

[jimjamshaslefttheyurt]

scroll down & I've written about PEDS and M-CHAT

DS3 was a bit "dodgy" at 16 months. He's absolutely fine now though (he's 3- almost 4). Although we did keep him off gluten and switch him to goats milk (after a Sunderland test).

[jimjamshaslefttheyurt]

oh to answer the question. M-CHAT should be done at 18 months and repeated a month later if there's a 'fail'.

[Frightattendent]

Thankyou Jimjams, I have just spent the last 15 mins reading that thread and was wondering if you were still about!!

I guess we won't know much for the time being, but it's worth keeping an eye so we can help him if necessary I suppose.

Thanks all x

[silverfrog]

oh, sorry, it works for me (just re-tried)

I was the one pushing for investigations with my dd. I went to the baby clinic every month or so from when she was about 7 months old, as there was soemthing not quite right about her.

the hvs at that point were useless - they would look at her, ask whether she was eating and sleeping (yes, on both counts, in spades!) and then tell me she was lovely (well, yes, i knew that )

she was not at all interested in the world around her. at 12 months old, she still was not really reaching out and picking up toys (was able to, but just didn't) - if you gave her a toy, she would hold it and look at it in a politely interested kind of way, but not play with it. I could gve her a ball to hold, and put her on her playmat, then go and hang the washing out, have a cup of tea, walk the dog (disclaimer: i didn't really do this bit) and she would be where I'd put her when i got back.

when she was 14 months old, i was back at the clinic talking to another hv. we spoke for about 40 mins, d1 played with a brick (one single brick) for the whole time - just picking it up and dropping it again, then giggling and doing it again. I was told at this point i was lucky to have such an easy baby (she was not babling, and did not point/bring me stuff either - her method of "playing" was not my only concern)

Thankfully, when dd1 was 17 months, we moved, and at 19 months I went to the hv again, praying that she would listen to me.

She did, did the CHAT test (dd1 failed on all critical points, i think, but baffled them on the social side) and dd got referred to SALT and Paed, and we went from there (mind you, it still was a painful process - the first paed we saw said there was no way dd1 could be autisitic because she wasn't rocking in a corner ).

dd1 was diagnosed at about 2.9 or so, by which point it was no surprise to me. Sadly, because i took the news so calmly, I think I have been labelled as indenial. you've got to laugh, really.

Well done (sorry that sounds patronising) on picking up on things so early. Knowing (if there is something to be known) is the best thing you can do, as at least you are working forma position of strength.

[Frightattendent]

Agh! I keep getting a blank page!!!

It doesn't matter, will ask HV anyway...but kind of you to link!

Your daughter sounds really lovely and very intelligent, I'm sorry you went through it a bit getting a dx for her - you do know your own child best and you obviously did everything you could...just some 'experts' aren't too helpful I guess!

Not patronising at all and thankyou for all your insight. (you made me laugh with the dog walking!) I'll report back when I know more after HV x

[Liffey]

My son seems normal to me, apart from his severe speech delay. Apparently he has other delays too though. I am not 100% convinced. I thnk they don't see him at his best. They see him when he's wary of scary ladies with clipboards

But I suppose I have to admit he does have some ASD type behaviours, such as obsession with keys (taking them to bed) glasses cases and glasses, door handles. He does jig-saws picture side down . BUT, he hugs me and is affectionate and loves his sister. His behaviour is challenging right now, but he's 3 and can't speak, so he's frustarted. I think his brain is normal though. I think that. The educational psychologist thinks he has a mild ASD. We both think we're right. Although we'ver never argued !!

[jimjamshaslefttheyurt]

Kids with ASD can be very affectionate (at least my severely autistic 9 year old is). Not saying your son has ASD (!) just saying affection is a bit of a red herring.

silverfrog- I think we've commented on a similar thread, but I was 'in denial' for insisting that ds1 should get SALT. It's a standard 'pro' response to a parent.

[AbstractMouse]

Fright I am just wondering as well as you if the age thing is crucial? I looked at the links and Ds would have failed miserably at 16 months, wasn't pointing etc.

Now at 23 months points a plenty (started around 18 months) doesn't have any obsessional type thing as far as I can tell, loves his cars and trains. He interacts normally as far as I know? has eye contact and appropriate responses (even though he doesn't speak much)

I do worry tbh, but then again I think in my head OMG what if he has something wrong. My more rational side then takes over and says erm well so fecking what, he's a lovely chubby tickly affectionate lump of gorgeousness. If he doesn't speak until he is 3 or 53 I still love him to bits.

It's a bit of a shock to the system after Dd I can tell you.

[silverfrog]

yep. another affectionate ASD child here. dd1 is very cuddly, and insists on giving people a kiss goodbye, as she cannot wave.

As yet, this only extends ot people she knows fairly well (although she did give ehr ABA consultant a kiss on his second visit) - can't wait until it becomes a standard response to shop keepers etc

jimjams - yes, I think our path through early diagnosis was very similar - iirc your ds was too "content" to be ASD (as was dd, apparently)

I am currently in denial over dd's abilities wrt schooling. She has just been assessed as capable enough academically for an ASD unit, but socially too immature - the fact that she needs extra support put them off . she is quite prompt dependent atm (very passive) but I fail to see how this is harder to deal with than extreme challenging behaviour...

[jimjamshaslefttheyurt]

silverfrog- ds1's NHS SALT passed out on seeing ds1 give his private SALT a cuddle. "I didn;t know he was capable of that". Capable? he just saw his private SALT more than one every 6 months

I saw your thread about school but didn't add as I didn't really know what to say.... It does seem crazy - I would presume its to do with being unable to place very challenging children anywhere except the unit- rather than what is best for your dd1.

Abstract- there's no crucial age as such- but I do think it's worth waiting for 18 months then keeping an eye. If your ds is interacting normally at 23 months (how is he out of the home say at parent and toddler groups etc- that's where any differences become really obvious) then I wouldn't worry about when he passed the CHAT.

[Frightattendent]

I'm sorry silver that you've had difficulty getting her into school.

It's interesting to hear that you both were told your children were 'too content' - my son is an extremely passive and quiet little thing, I call him 'Mouse' - very much a contrast to Ds1...but then it's not something unique to autistic children so not much of a clue in our case I suppose.

Abstract I think if he started pointing at 18mo that's a good sign, on some of the pointing threads there've been, lots of children were like that.

Ds doesn't point at all, (well I thought I saw him do it once, about a month ago, but it wasn't clear) and doesn't imitate me if I make a face (again he has done this once, and it took him about a minute to work it out), he does not look at things I am looking at, and he also moves his fingers in a strange way next to his face. He doesn't try and attract my attention to what he is doing and he often wanders about with no purpose.

He has odd movement patterns (for instance stopping often with his head on the floor, or just lying on the floor in an odd position, staring at nothing) and will sometimes walk (used to crawl) over to a wall, stand there and be totally silent, hanging his head, refusing to respond to anyone (he wasn't playing a game)

He has very few 'words' and uses them pretty randomly and they are not clear.

I don't know if any of this is very significant but I do want the reassurance of a professional opinion...I didn't really do PFB but he is my PSC!

[cyberseraphim]

'Would he just be observed for another few months?'

Given his age, I think the answer is yes in the sense that no onward referral for full assessment will be made until he is older. The professionals know that parents are scared of the autism word and that unless the parent raises the issue in very strong terms, they will not have to do anything. My DS1 was very passive as a baby/young toddler and still is now although he has opened up a lot more in communicative terms and we are now trying to push him ( in a nice way) to become more frustrated so that he will move to a higher level of communication. 16 months is young though so you really don't know what the next 6 months will bring in developmental terms but if you have concerns you should raise them now.

[jimjamshaslefttheyurt]

I agree with cyber. If you have difficulties getting a referral you could then say "Ok I will wait until 18 months when I want the M-CHAT administered". Because ds2 and ds3 were high risk I told the HV right from the moment they were born that if, at 18 months they were failing the CHAT test then I wouldn't be fobbed off I would be asking (and expecting to get) a referral.

Have you looked at Floortime? little bit about it and more links in the 1st 2 entries here
It's not something that is aimed specifically at autism - can be used with any child (including NT) but is good to encourage interaction and compared to some other interventions relatively easy for parents to do.

[Flightattendent]

Hi...just an update.
She came today and sat here observing him for ages...she was quite helpful, older woman who had never heard of the CHAT or anything that was on it

But she was aware of what she was looking for I think. She kept remarking on interactions he would have, with her for instance - while she was talking with me, and I hadn't even noticed what he was doing

She said that severe autism would be unlikely, that she hadn't seen anything which 'alarmed' her, but also that mild autism would be extremely difficult to diagnose at this age.

She said that he was obviously new to walking, but at least he was doing it! And that he is definitely at the lower range for his age regarding speech. So she is going to come a few times over the next few months and see how he is getting on.

So I don't feel much the wiser tbh! But am glad someone is watching him with me iyswim.

[Flightattendent]

Thanks for the floortime link btw, I emant to say that yesterday when I looked at it!