dd1 (age 3) acting up since birth of dd2 (5 wks) - how much discipline?

[pregnabrain]

hello

am not sure how to deal with dd1's difficult behaviour since the birth of dd2.

she's always been the apple of our eye (a total PFB princess) and received loads of attention from us. Her behaviour has always been really, really good. She's been incredibly easy to deal with, very communicative and bright.

Since birth of dd2 five weeks ago, it's like we've suddenly got a different child in the house. She's bossy, tantrum-y, rude, has selective deafness. Most of this comes in my direction.

She's doing a lot of role play stuff that's quite 'dark' (eg about hitting and biting) - really unlike her.

Am terribly hormonal and not taking it very well. I'm trying to be cheerful and set aside time for the two of us, but she doesn't seem to want me at all at the moment.

I'm struggling with the whole discipline thing too. I feel like I'm constantly telling her off and my mum told me I'm too stern with her the other day. So, should I let the discipline slide and allow behaviour that I don't think is acceptable?? Or will that just make her feel more insecure because the normal boundaries will also have disappeared??

Argh...am in turmoil and filled with guilt and a sense of loss for our old relationship at the moment.

Has my darling girl gone forever?

[deaconblue]

no, my darling boy is starting to come back. dd is ten weeks on Wednesday and ds has been a nightmare. He started hitting and pushing after dh went back to work after paternity leave and is just starting to get a bit better. We have been super strict about the bad behaviour, introducing time out etc but I've also been trying to give him tonnes of positive attention (not easy with new baby I know). I think it's another "this too shall pass" phase

[pregnabrain]

am dtermined to keep going with the positive stuff but it's so hard. i always felt so sure of myself in my relationship with her before this. now i feel like she's in the driving seat rather than me - i feel like i've lost control of things.

am also struggling to match her energy. am exhausted and have a bit of pnd and feel so lethargic. she seems absolutely manic in comparison - like she's on overdrive the whole time ( a bit like when she's had too much chocolate!!)

good to hear there is light at the end of the tunnel.

[AuntyJ]

It does get better. DS was born in Jan and DD is 3yrs. We had the tantrums and selective hearing which is made worse due to tiredness and hormones.
Feeding was the tricky part I use to ask her to get a book and would read while feeding or ask her to draw a picture to show me when I had finished the feed.
I did miss her dreadfully though at the begining but it does get back to normal once the baby gets bigger.
DD adores her brother and they always have big smiles and giggles for each other. Thats a great feeling!

[Flibbertyjibbet]

We also did positive attention whilst also doing time out for things like pinching or hitting his brother (16m age gap).

Your relationship can't be the same with your daughter - the old relationship was that of an only child with her parents. Your said it yourself 'she was a total pfb princess' Now you have two children and to still give dd the attention and relationship you did before, would be detrimental to your relationship with dd2.

Make sure you still have some exclusive time with her. When dd2 is napping etc, leave the chores and do stuff with dd1 like you used to. Asking her to 'help mummy' ie little things like bringing stuff for baby might work. Telling her off will just make her feel more excluded.

[pregnabrain]

how does time out work? is that like the naughty step? i've used that with her in the past for the rare occasions when she's done something really unreasonable. it worked when i used it.

am doing my best to keep some time in the day for her but it's SO tempting to do the washing up or washing that's piling up around us as that really stresses me out too. but you're right. it's less important than maintaining time for her.

breaks my heart to read you saying my relationship can't be the same with her, although of course it makes complete sense.

thanks for your advice.

[AuntyJ]

pregnabrain - do you go out to mums & tots groups? I found this helps alot as she can play for an hour or so & you can chill out for a while.
Your relationship wont be the same but it will move on dont be sad. When DS asleep we still have our silly times

[HonoriaGlossop]

I only have one so will leave the advice here to the others but I just wanted to add that if she's role playing some 'dark' ish thoughts that is great and to be encouraged IMO - kids work through things really well by role playing; she's doing the right thing i think! It's probably healthy for her to role play out these feelings.

[merryberry]

pb when they are so little, i time out by going to eye level saying in best i'm in charge voice 'you may not do XXX', move child to out of way spot, eye level again 'stay here and think a minute', move away. (if tantrum ratchets up), go back to eye level 'when you're done crying/kicking/screaming/banging floor we'll sort it out' and get on with life a bit. Go back, if still really in thick of it, or worse, 'shall i help you calm down now?' (we do a hug and breathe slow like mummy). If getting over it on own, say 'well done calming down, come and do YYY with us' when really calm, briefly go over what happened, bigging up that they thought it out themselves. Soon as all done move on to something new, forget about it all.

learnt with acting out adults when i was a psychiatric nurse!

[MyDingaling]

This is really useful. I have a PFB princess who is 3 and I am due to have DC2 in three weeks. I am reslly worried about how this will change our relationship.

[madmarriedNika]

Just wanted to ditto others- there's a slightly smaller age gap between my DCs (2.2yrs) but similar situation.

When BFing DD (DC#2) I would always sit on sofa and DS (DC#1) would read with me, or we'd watch an age-appropriate DVD together (or Planet Earth, which he loves). As soon as DD slept I'd put all remaining energy into playing with DS, 1to1, e.g. play-doh (which incidentally when DD was still under 4 months we could do while BFing!!), painting, play tent etc. If I really had to do chores I'd try to make it a game that DS helped with.

DS helped me every nappy change (passing cotton wool after dipping it in water, putting nappy in bin/bucket) and I made it seem like he was essential to the nappy changing/cleaning of DD process.

I constantly told him that she was listening to him, smiling at him etc.

I'd try to get the both out to the park/beach etc. once a day, mainly for DS's benefit as he hates being couped up all day. Sometimes it wasn't until 4pm but better than not at all!! Meals were v simple, easy things so I didn't spend much time fretting about cooking...unless it was something DS wanted to do.

If he was playing up, e.g. doing things he knows he shouldn't, or the one occassion he went to hit DD, he went straight into Time Out (3 mins). Worked very well for us, so long as you always explain why you're doing it - what he did wrong and how you'd like him to behave- and tell him to think about it.

Lots and lots of cuddles were always essential whenever opportunities arose.... And if I was wrecked, DD was sleeping & DS awake I'd suggest we curl up in the "big bed" and read stories under the covers with a torch, or watch a DVD together- often he's fall asleep with me or at least I got to lie down. Yes we watched quite a lot of DVDs in the early couple of months!!!

Now DD is 1, and they get on really well even though DD constantly tries to snatch DS' toys! They work out their own "battles", but DS is very good generally and looks out for her and still wants to help me lots (bless). Will miss him as will DD when he starts preschool!

[MrsMacaroon]

include her as much as possible...ask her opinion eg 'what do you want baby to wear?', 'where shall we take baby for walk?' etc

[Elkat]

My DD2 was born when DD1 had just turned three. her behaviour was awful - mostly before the birth, but the thing I remember and I think was quite telling was that she used to ask (a lot) 'will you still love me when the baby is born?'. She felt very insecure when DD2 was born. So we put lots of time and effort into making what a fantastic big sister she was, how she was the best big sister. If people wanted to cuddle the baby they had to ask her big sister, and we used to say that the baby was stupid/ boring because it couldn't do anything and how we much preferred having a big girl who we could talk to and play with. We also made time for special 'mummy and me' times and 'daddy and me' times. So one of us would take her out and do special things with just her. My parents did the same.

In the end, she eventually got over it... and now the two girls are incredibly close.. sometimes they even choose to sleep together and they screech when they see each other after they have been apart. It might just be that your daughter needs to hear that she is still number one to you etc. When she accepts it, you can drop the 'babys are pants' act - but it really worked for us.
HTH

[Elkat]

Oh and with teh discipline - we were very strict on anything physical, but turned a blind eye to almost everything else.

[pregnabrain]

thanks for all the advice, and for the time out explanation.

we have a great social scene, but am trying not to do too many play dates as it just ends up being yet more time when she doesn't get enough of my attention. great for me though as i get adult company!

honoria - that's a really positive way to look at the role play thing. i'll try to chill about it, as long as it doesn't turn into real hitting etc

has anyone tried asking their eldest to talk about their feelings? have tried a bit but with little success. maybe she's too young?

today has been pretty good, actually. a bigger boy was prodding dd2 in her pushchair at the swings and dd1 got really protective. she muscled him out of the way saying "i'm her sister!"

[HowlingCow]

When DD1 was 2.5yrs I was really chuffed that she seemed to take so well to DD2's arrival. After 3 weeks however DD1 turned to me and said "shall we take her back to the hospital now?". Had a few hellish months where I felt secretly upset that she'd turned to my DH to the exclusion of me but as soon as DD2 started to become 'entertaining' i.e crawling etc-we became close again and now the 2 girls are inseperable!!

[MakemineaGandT]

Don't panic. My DS1 went through a terrible phase when DS2 arrived. It took a couple of months for him to return to his lovely self! Try to deal calmly with her, and ignore as much as you can (other than things that would be dangerous for the baby obviously). Don't overcompensate either otherwise she might feel as though she is justified in feeling put out by the new arrival. Just be sensitive - her whole world has been turned upside down by the new arrival and she hasn't got the adult perspective on it that you have

Oh - one more thing - someone advised me not to make too much of the "ooh you have to be the big sister and help look after baby" blah blah blah - the idea that they have to be responsible for the baby can worry some children. Let them help if they want to but don't over-encourage or force the issue...

[MsDemeanor]

Don't panic! It's just a phase. IME there is a period between about three weeks (when they realise the baby is staying) and eleven weeks (when they realise the baby is staying, are fine with that and in many ways can hardly remember a time before the baby and find it rather cute) when they are a NIGHTMARE. Then is does pass. Honest.
During the 2-11weeks (ish) they are in shock, feeling jealous, a bit scared and testing that you still love them. NO matter how giant they now seem next to the newborn, they are really only babies themselves at three. What worked for me was lots of time OUT of the house, so the baby is in the pram and your dd is walkign with you or on the buggy board so they are equal (ie the baby's not in your arms all the time) and you are going somewhere interesting for your dd - to the park or to a cafe for cake. Hopefully the baby will sleep so you will get 1-1 time at the park or cafe (you are lucky to have a summer baby). If you have a friend with a child the same age as your dd, invite her round and let your dd have a playdate so she can enjoy being big and you can point out the huge advantages of being a big girl. 'Oh, poor baby can't play with toys/colour in/go to the toilet/have friends to play like you'. And, to me, most importantly, I went on and on and on about how much the baby adored its siblings. 'Oh look, baby is smiling at you. She definitely likes you best!' 'Please will you stroke baby's hair/sing to baby as you are her best friend' 'Oh this baby loves her big sister so much' and I'd do a special high pitched baby voice and say 'Oh big sister, I love you so much' or 'I wish I could feed myself like you big sister' or 'I wish I had beautiful hair like my big sister'.
You wouldn't think they'd fall for it, but IME they do!
Good luck!
(btw I sort of disagree that your relationship won't be the same - this current state of affairs is temporary)

[MsDemeanor]

Also baby your dd a bit if she wants. Cuddle and carry her about a bit. She'll probably find it boring after a bit. And of course tell her you love her absolutely non-stop. Sometimes I'd say things like 'gosh I'm so glad you don't cry like that noisy little baby!' or 'It's fun to chat with you. You can't really chat with a baby, can you?'
Some people really don't agree with that, but I think it creates a slightly naughty, conspiratorial bond between you and the baby can't understand a word!

[MsDemeanor]

If you have any money at all, get a cleaner one day a week to help with your sanity.
Back off with the discipline, except for actual hitting/biting.

[MakemineaGandT]

MsDemeanor - I do that too - put on a voice pretending to be the baby and DS1 LOVES it! There are all sorts of other tricks too eg "ooh DS1 - show DS2 how to eat broccoli"

[MsDemeanor]

That's a brilliant idea!