5yo. .poo issues. Any advice?

[FifiFerusha]

My DD has started doing some very odd things. It started when DS was born in July so we put it down to that. Basically she started getting poo marks on her pants and started picking poo out of her bottom and rubbing it on the furniture. She stopped this after a month or two but now it has started again but worse. We found dried lumps of it behind the sofa. The other day she literally pooed a tiny bit in her hand and ran to put it in the bin. We think she is aware of it and we can always tell when she is about to do it as she gives us a quick glance to see if we are watching.

We are aware that this could be an attention thing due to the timing of DS so have tried to be calm about it but I am now at the end of my tether. I really don't want this to be a reaction to DS and we try hard to give her the attention she needs. It is just soo strange. She also will not go to the toilet without me or DP going with her( although out and about she will go alone). She is also still wetting the bed at night. Despite months of trying without I am ashamed to say that she is in pull ups again but we want to get rid of these ASAP. I just don't want to put too much apon her as there are obviously issues that need solving. Any ideas? Thanks x

[ppeatfruit]

It could be a reaction to a low fibre diet (or to too much high wheat fibre). Has she special needs at all? Or an intolerance of dairy.

I would sit her down and discuss it with her (you sound kind and that's important so she's not frightened to talk to you). Maybe a good doctor or nurse would help too.

[FifiFerusha]

Other than these issues she is a bright girl who is mostly happy but she still tantrums regularly and is very dramatic in her character. She has no particular special needs. We just figured the behaviour was something psychological though and didn't consider diet. She eats mostly homemade food(with persuasion) and is a good eater at school apparently, so I feel her diet seems balanced but could be wrong.

Do you think it is best to see a doctor. .starting to worry about her a lot. Although nothing has happened today. This is such a strange problem. .sorry.

[Notsosmartagain]

Op could she be constipated? This can sometimes cause wetting. Also might explain the change in behaviour if she is feeling uncomfortable and very conscious of her BM? Try the GP and see if what s/he opinion is. There are treatments available if she is.

[SisterViktorine]

I would take her to your GP. He or she may think a CAMHS referral is appropriate, although depending on your area CAMHS may be too stretched for this to meet the threshold.

Have you tried reward/ sanction type strategies to stop it- coupled with an explanation about personal hygiene?

[FifiFerusha]

What is CAMHS?

When it first started DP cracked down hard with sanctions. .toys taken away etc...I don't know if it was this or just other things that stopped it for a while.

We have always taught her good personal hygiene and mostly she adheres to this. We have talked to her a lot about it. I feel embarrassed to have to write this post.

I think I should go to talk to the GP but not with her. If it is psychological I think that focus wouldn't help.

Can I also mention that it often happens when we are out the room. About twice a week DP is late back and I have to set up activities for her ( or on lazy days a DVD, tiny pop shhh!) so that she can stay downstairs while I Zput DS(5mo) to bed. I can't really do anything else. .i am sure others here have been in this situation. It isn't ideal. So, I am wondering if it is a reaction to this.

[spaceyboo]

It sounds like she's retaining her poo for some reason and then it's probably coming out out of control. My sister used to do that and it wrecked her bowel control - she had to be potty trained again and urged to drink more water etc but eventually grew out of it. I agree that the other parts (taking it out, spreading it everywhere) is for attention - have you tried giving her a role in some part of DS's routine that currently takes you away from her? Might help to involve her in his baths etc (she could be rubber ducky holder or something).

[AnotherStitchInTime]

She sounds chronically constipated. Get a GP appointment and a prescription for Movicol paediatric. Make sure she is drinking enough water.

On the attention seeking front can she sit and read a story with you and ds before you put ds to sleep, so she is not on her own for as long?

Also does she get any 1:1 time with you on days when DP is home where you do something she likes. Playing with her toys, reading her a story, playing a board games, art ... With dd1 I tried to give her 1:1 time during dd2's nap time and after dd2 went to bed. I know how hard it is to find that time, but it is worth it. I have 3 children now and work full time, Dd2 is now nearly 4 and more challenging in her behaviour at this age than dd1 was. She behaves better when she has had 1:1 time with me. 1:1 time with your DP would be good for her too, but not having to share you particularly for a small portion of every day might help reassure her.

[Cabawill]

Can you check for worms OP. My 4yo DD started putting her finger in her bum because it was itchy I assume which moved on to picking out poo and then wiping it on the wall or furniture. It only happened 3 times over a period of a week and it was only after a stern telling off she told us it was itchy- I'd not seen her scratching.

Treated with ovex and nothing since thank goodness

[SarcasticAndRabidAngryHarpy]

Does she go for a poo on the toilet? And has she just started school?

DD2 (just 5) started school and I think she's holding off going to a poo at school. She comes home with poo stains. She then does the whole lot in her pants sometime in the evening. We don't have poo picking/smearing but I'm wondering if there's been a change like that - altering her bowel habits.

I'd second the see a GP to see if it's a physical problem, or worms.

I was despairing but at Xmas I gave DD2 a small pouch bag with 10x 1p and told her that for every poo in the toilet she'll get a penny, if she's outside of the house and we have to find a toilet and she makes it she'll get 2p. If I have to change her shell lose a penny to pay for the wet wipes and/or the replacement underwear. Fingers crossed, but playing a light-hearted game has focussed her. She's quite a few coins up now and only one incident when she had a dodgy tummy after too many sweet things (no coins were taken as DD1 and I decided that illnesses do not count) Would something like this be worth a try?

hmmm is this bribery? If so AIBU to be so cheap?

[SisterViktorine]

CAMHS is Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services- the GP could refer to this service if he/she thought the psychological aspect warranted it.

Realistically, getting help with young people's mental health is like finding a hens tooth. I have known children go under CAMHS for very persistent inappropriate behaviour around faecal matter though, so it does happen.

[FifiFerusha]

Thank you for your time to reply everyone!

I have also considered that she may not be going at school. She has been at school over a year. However she continued to do it in the christmas holidays. She will poo normally on the toilet and I considered constipation too. She drinks plenty and In all is generally quite healthy. She does get a sore bottom often and this is intensified by the fact that I have her in pull ups at the Moment at night so am slapping on the cream to prevent this. I feel so sorry for her but we have tried hard with the wet nights..no drinks , getting her up for the toilet etc...I have heard that if they can't manage a dry night at the age if 6 the it also needs medical attention. So feel under pressure with this but don't want her to pick up on that as it may go wrong.

I would love to involve her In bedtimes. It is hard because DS is such a stimulated and distracted baby. He loves DD and will not calm down around her. Which has it up and down side. I could certainly involve her in bath time but then he does needs quiet lullaby time before bed. He will not feed around her(and only In the dark..little mr distracted) so this also cause problems. She ends up spending about half an hour alone when I put him to bed. .luckily he can self sooth now as it used to be longer.

I agree I need to take more time to spend one to one with her. I have tried to take advantage of his nap times at the weekends. .even if it is just colouring in together. But it is hard for her, for five years she got a lot of attention and now she is probably struggling with the transition. DP has a lot of one to one time with her which is good but I do miss the time with her. I do feel I could do better here. I think once I have to stop running off to dark rooms for a feed things will be better in that department. I still feel guilty though.

I don't know much about worms but will look it up. I hope not as this means she may have had it for months. I think I foolishly ruled out a physical problem. Anyway, I am determined to get this sorted.

DP late again tonight. I have gotten her excited by promising a Frozen and late night with mummy and popcorn and she got really excited about this. I just hope DS behaves :) x


Oh, dear, what a waffle long post. .oops.

[ppeatfruit]

Does your LO settle downstairs at all ? If you got him used to it , maybe yr. DD could read him a story and or sing him a lullaby. You could try it to see if it worked and then take him upstairs when he's asleep.

Or tire him out in the bath WITH DD?

[Portlypenguin]

I could have written this thread. MY ds1 is 4 and started reception ( at 4.2) in sept having been dry/poo trained for a few months. DS2 was born in june this year. The first few weeks of school was okay we started getting lots of poo and wee accidents. The poo problems started similarly to you and progressed to full accidents. we saw the health visitor and Gp who recommmended daily movicol, a daily set toilet time, reward system and discussing with school. It was a fairly successful strategy with hardly any accidents wpin the past few weeks. Suggest seeing the gp/hv and getting their support for doing something similar. I am not quite sure why it has all happened but it seems to be improving. Ds1 is quite an anxious child and i thougt it was probably a reaction to new baby and starting school, plus he is only little still. He is quite emotionally immature ( his teacher thinks this too) and wtill has lots of outbursts and some refusal to do things like getting dressed ( which he can do) but everyone i have spoken to says that we just need to wait for him to mature and encourage big boy behaviours!
Good luck and don't panic!